Science + Politics = ?

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:52 pm

Denyer wrote:America voted for a leader. That man speaks for America because we chose him to. If you don't like it, you are outnumbered. America is a democracy. We all get a say. More would say no to your ideas than would say yes.

i just really really got lost. did i miss something major here?

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:57 pm

I went to private school so I got a really good education, basically, and am more valuable in the work force as a result.

Denyer · Post by **Denyer** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:44 am

tviyh wrote:
Denyer wrote:America voted for a leader. That man speaks for America because we chose him to. If you don't like it, you are outnumbered. America is a democracy. We all get a say. More would say no to your ideas than would say yes.
i just really really got lost. did i miss something major here?

Are you saying you hate America? You can move to Canada if you don't like it here handsome fellow. America is the greatest country in the world and I am proud on this 4th of July weekend to call myself an American.

Plushpolly · Post by **Plushpolly** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:11 am

America is one of the best countries in the world, so don't you think we should make it the best it can be? I mean do you really think it's so perfect that it cant get any better?

fodroy · Post by **fodroy** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:25 am

Plushpolly wrote:America is one of the best countries in the world...

there are those who would call this nothing more than a theory...

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:28 am

Actually America is not a democracy

It is indeed a Constituional Republic

There really is a difference

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:33 am

Me$$iah wrote:Actually America is not a democracy

It is indeed a Constituional Republic

There really is a difference

Actually the USA is (in theory) a democracy. Democracy and Constituional Republic are not mutually exclusive. I don't know why people want to try to insist that they are.

Plushpolly wrote:America is one of the best countries in the world

Not that good - couldn't make the final 16 in the World Cup

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:40 am

bugger

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:49 am

No there really is a difference between the two

The short answer is that a constitution garuantees certain rights, whereas within a democracy you cane end up with a 'tyranny of the masses'

the long answer is Badnariks Constitution Class
seriously well worth watching.. even tho it is a really long answer

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:12 am

Me$$iah wrote:No there really is a difference between the two

The short answer is that a constitution garuantees certain rights, whereas within a democracy you cane end up with a 'tyranny of the masses'

the long answer is Badnariks Constitution Class
seriously well worth watching.. even tho it is a really long answer

But surely - 'democracy' only describes a system of government - ie. government by the people or their representatives, and a 'contstitution' is just a set of laws by which a country may be governed. (and generally - constitutions don't guarentee rights - they merely define powers in a system of government)

Therefore - A 'Democracy' may or may not be constitutional and likewise, constitutional governments may, or may not be democratic.

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:20 am

Actually, the key word is "republic", not "constitution."

There's lots of stuff here that highlights the distinction, but really simply put: the U.S. has a bill of rights (separate from its constitution) which protects individuals from the will of the majority.

Something else to consider: If the U.S. were a democracy, Al Gore would have won the 2000 election, as he got the most votes. Bush won because their electoral system protects states' rights. Not very democratic!!

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:27 am

deshead wrote:Actually, the key word is "republic"

Isn't a 'republic' simply a representative democracy which has a president as head of state?

The USA is (nominally) a representative democracy - but the electoral system is just a bit dodgy. Don't know about Canada - but a majority of the popular vote certainly doesn't mean you get elected in Australia's democracy either (Google Joh Bjelke Petersen - Premier of Queensland 1968-1987)

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:07 am

Caravan Ray wrote:The USA is (nominally) a representative democracy

Ah, I see. We're using different definitions of the word. English is funny.

Ya you're right, the U.S. is a representative democracy (more specifically, a republican democracy.) But it's not "a democracy" in the pure sense, because without some qualifier, the word just means "rule by the people," which Al Gore will tell you isn't so American.

Caravan Ray wrote:Don't know about Canada

Constitutional Monarchy, same as you guys.

Poor June wrote:i'm fighting an idea we've based our lives around for no real apparent reason.

I really think you'd get a lot from studying some Sociobiology and Social Psych. There are some very good reasons why we all "base our lives around" the same ideas. (In short, it allows our species to exist.) Knowing these reasons helps a lot when trying to understand the world, and how to change it. Or more importantly, how to be happy within it. See, you don't want to fight the "ideas" so much as recognize why they have their power, and work within the limits they impose.

Poor June wrote:I feel as though the government has gotten the best of us, by using our own human instincts to guide us into their directions, for their own personal gains.

Honestly, man, that's just life.

The government does it, sure. But so do you and I! We all do. Everything about human interaction is (necessarily) riddled with the nuances of human behaviour. It doesn't matter whether you're a politician, or a Buddhist monk. You're self-interested, and as soon as your interests intersect with someone else's, you start "guiding others" for your own personal gain.

I know why you rail against it, 'cause it sucks ass to feel like your autonomy is threatened. But really, dude, you don't want to change this. It's through realizing our own self interests that we find happiness. And what's the point of life if we can't be happy?

Again, check out some sociobiology .... I'm certain you'll appreciate the perspective.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:26 am

deshead wrote: Ah, I see. We're using different definitions of the word. English is funny.

Ya you're right, the U.S. is a representative democracy (more specifically, a republican democracy.) But it's not "a democracy" in the pure sense, because without some qualifier, the word just means "rule by the people," which Al Gore will tell you isn't so American.

Yes - we are just quibbling over definitions - but I would still argue that the USA is a democracy (no qualifier necessary), as the representatives are democratically elected (in theory). As far as what you call democracy in the 'pure sense' - I don't think that has really ever existed since ancient Athens, has it - though remnants of it still exist in most modern liberal democracies in the form of referenda

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:49 am

Caravan Ray wrote:As far as what you call democracy in the 'pure sense' - I don't think that has really ever existed since ancient Athens, has it

Ya, doubtful at the national government level, but the concept of democracy isn't inherently political. For me anyway, that's why the word by itself still just means "majority rule."

Just last week, even, my softball team voted 8-7 for the lager over the ale. Democracy in action, you see.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:56 am

deshead wrote: Just last week, even, my softball team voted 8-7 for the lager over the ale. Democracy in action, you see.

Coup d'etat time! (actually - I would have voted lager too)

LMNOP · Post by **LMNOP** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:57 am

deshead wrote:my softball team voted 8-7 for the lager over the ale.

Here's where protection of individual rights from the will of the majority gets really important.

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:31 am

deshead wrote:the U.S. is a representative democracy (more specifically, a republican democracy.) But it's not "a democracy" in the pure sense, because without some qualifier, the word just means "rule by the people," which Al Gore will tell you isn't so American.

that's like saying china isn't really communist. "pure" forms of any social structure are only theoretical; in practice there would always have to be some form of qualifier. so that kind of effectually negates the need for a qualifier.

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:39 am

Denyer wrote:I am proud on this 4th of July weekend to call myself an American.

that's the part i was confused about.

Denyer · Post by **Denyer** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:08 pm

god why did i use the d word

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:53 pm

Denyer wrote:god why did i use the d word

Denyer?

Plushpolly · Post by **Plushpolly** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:19 am

whats up with your quote denyer?