What do you want from a review on SongFight?

Post by jb » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:12 pm

erik wrote:Well, when I go to Walmart I expect to hear screaming children, but that don't make it right. And I'm not thin-skinned for not wanting to hear that kind of noise.

I totally expect people to instinctively respond to a negative opinion of their work in a totally juevenile "i-know-you-are-but-what-am-I" fashion. But that doesn't make that kind of response a good response in any sense of the word. It makes people less likely to be honest, it makes people less likely to offer opinions at all, and it discourages dialogue. It makes people less likely to use their brain to explain themselves, and more likely to come up with what they think is a clever insult.

Yeah, I guess you're right. I just never really expect anybody to overcome that juvenile impulse.

Mostess · Post by **Mostess** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:19 pm

jb wrote:I'm not sure why critics should expect artists not to bite back when they get a negative review.

Because there's no reason for them to bite back. What does biting back accomplish? Even if a review is actually a "bite" (caustic, personal, unreasonable---a pretty rare occurance), why respond?

Critic: Here's what I thought of your song.
Artist: What a horrible thing to say.

It's stupid. And it's common.

If we were, say, baking each other cakes instead of writing reviews, and the recipients were all "No! I'm ALLERGIC to chocolate! You dick!", I'd stop playing that game, too. And I like baking (not true of reviewing). Thin skin, maybe. But that's not the whole picture.

Mostess · Post by **Mostess** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:27 pm

I should add, too, that I have a pretty strict rule: never respond to reviews. Occasionally I'll have a weak moment and post a "thank you" or "you're right" or somesuch. I know the temptation to put a public face on my reaction to a review (positive or negative), but I (like many of us) have been around here long enough to know that no one really cares.

And Erik is right: I really, really don't want reviewers thinking about how I might react while they are evaluating a Hostess Mostess entry. Bland "I kinda like it" reviews are bad enough when they're not just trying to placate me.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:53 pm

Mostess wrote:I should add, too, that I have a pretty strict rule: never respond to reviews...I (like many of us) have been around here long enough to know that no one really cares.

Yeah, even if you ask a question to the reviewer they never seem to respond. Or maybe that's just me.
-bill

Post by **Lunkhead** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:43 pm

Mostess wrote:I should add, too, that I have a pretty strict rule: never respond to reviews. Occasionally I'll have a weak moment and post a "thank you" or "you're right" or somesuch. I know the temptation to put a public face on my reaction to a review (positive or negative), but I (like many of us) have been around here long enough to know that no one really cares.

I try to follow the same policy. A review is someone's opinion, which is something I'm unlikely to be able to change (frustrating as that may be sometimes), even if I shout at them through the Internet tubes.

Anyway, I guess I feel like, sure, some people are immature, and respond immaturely to reviews, but some people are not, so I continue writing reviews in order to try to continue having some kind of dialog with those people. It's kinda like how some people send in crappy songs in perpetuity, but I keep listening to SongFight! anyway because a few people send in really great songs sometimes. It's not that hard to skip over the stuff I don't like, and the stuff I do like is worth it.

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:19 pm

jb wrote:I'm not sure why critics should expect artists not to bite back when they get a negative review.

I hate to keep picking your quotes to dissect JB, but you're tough enough, intelligent enough, and dammit, people like you. So here goes.

Artists shouldn't bite back because the critics didn't take the time just to listen to their song; they took the time to listen to all of the songs in the fight. And they took the time to try and write reviews for all of the songs in the fight. I don't write my reviews on the first day, or the first listen. And if the reviewer is like me, they listen more than once to each song, and it's a time consuming process. My time is valuable to me, so yeah; I would like to think an artist, whose time is just as valuable, might take that into consideration.

My process is I listen and make notes to each song on stream. Then I go back and listen again to each song, maybe multiple times individually, and try and try to fine tune my notes. I do this throughout the week of the fight to try and avoid the first impression syndrome. Then I type, spellcheck, re-read, edit and finally post my reviews. This process admittedly is much less time consuming than what I go through to write a song, so I can understand how a person might think the writer of said song should get the benefit of the doubt when someone reviews. Then again, a lot of people aren't spending that kind of time on their song either.

Those are what I would classify as the stinkers, and almost every fight I've reviewed has had at least one. That's when frustration begins to set in. What can I say that would add anything beneficial? How do I put this mildly? Do I say "Not my thing, you get an F"? They bitch. Do I say "Listen kids, I know you're fucking around and you just wasted 3 minutes of my life. Grow up"? They laugh a lot privately at their stupid little crank call, and then they bitch. Do I take the high road and say nothing at all? You get the "Hey man, did you forget about me? Where's my review?â€

Post by jb » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:46 pm

http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:49 am

Ha! Interestingly enough, my birthday is in early November making me a Scorpio so your story was quite fitting.

I'm still going to try and make it across the river without stinging any frogs in the back.

frankie big face · Post by **frankie big face** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:56 am

Dan-O from Five-O wrote:My time is valuable to me, so yeah; I would like to think an artist, whose time is just as valuable, might take that into consideration.

My process is [long]...

Okay Dan, you had me firmly in your corner, but now you're starting to lose me. I think you have an unreasonable expectation of how much others should value your reviews. I wouldn't expect anyone to spend this much time reviewing songs. It's great that you take pride in your reviews and that you want to be thorough and fair, but if you expect others to consider the depth and breadth of your process, you are as guilty as fodroy expecting others to understand and consider his recording limitations and/or intended lofi-ness. It's only reasonable for an artist to expect the average reviewer effort (clearly not you) or, more likely, an effort similar to his/her own reviewing process. For me personally, that will quite often mean I don't even make it to the end of a song one time! I expect those who don't like my music to give me the same level of (dis)courtesy and I'm not offended by that.

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:53 am

If you read a review of your song(or a review of your review of a song), and it's negative, who cares? Cry and whine that no one understands your musical/reviewing soul for 30 seconds, then shrug it off and don't reply saying "YOU DON'T GET ME!" and go on a mini rant. It's one person's opinion. There are biiiillions of people in the world. Chances are one of them is gonna like your song/review. Don't get worked up about it. I used to get all paranoid and lost confidence when I got a bad review on SF, and then realized it was kinda stupid so stopped doing it. If you have a genuine question about something a reviewer said, just PM them and say, "Wait a minute, what do you mean there was no x, I thought y was the x..." Sometimes you'll get helpful advice. Everyone wants just glowing prasises in the reviews of their song, but they'll never ever get that, because people like different things.

I think the reason why songfighters sometimes get defensive over their songs/reviews is that they 'know' each other. Reviewers don't want to hurt feelings, and musicians get upset if someone they respect/know/talk to doesn't like their song. So it leads to people being very nice(or just not giving a damna nd being 'blunt' anyway

) Maybe it's in your subconscious and you don't want to believe it, or maybe it's just me, I dunno. I'm full of musical love and want people to feel warm fuzzies with my reviews, but I know that's the direct opposite of other people in this thread, so eh

Ultimately, different strokes for different folks. Don't get worked up about it. Let it all slide. Don't worry, be happy. Other such moralistic phrases. Etc.

furrypedro · Post by **furrypedro** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:19 am

Sometimes when I get a negative review for a song that I liked it makes me more determined to stick to what I'm doing, forge ahead regardless and challenge myself to push my boundaries farther.

Sometimes when I get a positive review I think "job well done" and I have no idea what exactly it was about the song that hit the spot so don't know which direction to go next or I think about re-using elements. [example]TMK's 'Evan..' was by far my most popular entry vote-wise and I tried to re-use some elements in Too Far Away, which was significantly less popular. (whether it is better or worse is only personal opinion; and I'm not taking into account the strength of other entries that week)[/example] Also, this week I got 8 votes which is one of my best results, and in my new song I've submitted to a review request, whether it is better or worse remains to be heard, but the fact remains I'm reliving past glories (in a way), and that must be a negative effect of a postive review.

The validity of these comments also depends on how progressive your tastes are.

What do you want from a review on SongFight?

What is most important a review?