analog and digital

[halen99]

Please help me understand. I aways hear that recording on tape is "warmer" and you get a better end result. I typically use digi 002 /protools. So anyway fed my digi recording thru to a nice retro reel to reel machine recently serviced and whatnot.

It recorded nicely and sounds fine. It's fun to see the reels move while playing my song.. I then fed it back to protools to get it digital.

I prefer the original version because you can hear a little noise in the background of the tape version. I also am not feeling the warmness everyone talks about. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[king_arthur]

How hard did you hit the analog tape while recording? I think that "warmth" thing has to do with the fact that analog tape distorts in a different way than digital does, and when you just slightly overdrive the signal to analog tape, that's when the interesting things start to happen. Something to try, anyway...

Charles (KA)

[Hoblit]

to my ears, the whole 'warmer' thing is a myth. Excepting King Arthur's theory which I can totally get down with. I'm betting that between the natural fuzz created by the overdrive and the natural chorusing/phasing that occurs/plagues reel to reel units, I'd have to believe thats where this 'warmth' comes from.

I'm pretty sure you can reproduce this 'warmer' feeling with plug-ins these days. Or try a mono chorus mixed WAY back along with the ever so slightest 'fuzz/overdrive' mixed way back as well.

I for one would be interested in your findings.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I'm no expert, but what KA said is the gist of it. As said, it's the slight analog distortion that you get from pushing the track into the red. But I'd have to add that it is also that tape bleed that softens the edges. I've noticed that my vocal and bass tracks would warm up more as I added tracks on my old 8 track. So I do the same with plug ins now when I record/mix digital. I use tube drivers and analog FX to achieve what I feel I'm missing. The best part is that I'm in control of it now, whereas I just had to deal with it in the past.

[Paco Del Stinko]

As said, it's the slight analog distortion that you get from pushing the track into the red. But I'd have to add that it is also that tape bleed that softens the edges.

That makes sense. And the sharp clarity of digital can be perceived as harsh or cold without the literal blurring of the edges. No expert here either, but it appears as though it's often the low end stuff like kick drum or bass guitar that can sound worse, if only subtley, on digital. My buddy had an 8 track 1/2 inch reel to reel, and still swears that the drums, especially, sounded much better on tape. I believe that he now uses Digital Performer on a Mac.

There's probably science to either prove or discredit all/some of this, and some of it may be psychological, but perceived warmth as described above just makes sense. But when I think of all the time we used to spend just rewinding tape to get a part right, I'll take digital convenience any day. And 'un-do' is probably one of the best friends that I have ever had.

[obscurity]

I think whether or not it sounds better depends on what you're trying to achieve. I know for me it's digital all the way, but then cold & harsh is the name of the game for me. At the end of the day, trust your ears - which sounds best to you?

[halen99]

Here are some examples for all you playing at home.

Digital Version - http://www.tommyskeoch.com/Playing_GOD.mp3
Same Version ran thru Reel to Reel -http://www.tommyskeoch.com/playing_GOD_TEAC.mp3

Thanks for all the comments thus far. Any other thoughts, suggestions, etc would be great. I bought a couple really nice reel to reel decks and paid good money to get them serviced.. so I'd like to use them. Just not sure how happy I am with the results.

Eddie

[king_arthur]

I can hear some 60-cycle hum on the version that went through the reel-to-reel deck, a ground loop or something... you may need to fiddle with where your power cords are... most of those Teac decks did NOT have a grounded plug, as I recall, but something is creating a second path to ground...

Hey, it sounds like the version you ran through the Teac got turned into mono, on the digital version there are definitely two violins with some stereo separation, and on the Teac version I'm only hearing one of the violins and everything is right down the middle... so there's a reason right there why I'm liking the digital version better.

This may not be the sort of music that gains a lot from being analog-ized, since it's basically piano and violin and clarity is important... (edit: and it also has a lot of space and silences in the music, which let the tape hiss and hum show through, as opposed to, say, a rock song which pretty much has something going on all the time)

Nonetheless, can you give us a stereo version of the analog-ized song?

Charles (KA)

[halen99]

I prob did something wrong while transferring since this is my first attempt at this. Yeah tomorrow I will try again and see if it comes out stereo.
thanks.

Eddie

[roymond]

I don't think you're going to get that warm tape feeling from JUST digitally producing a mix, then recording the final mix on tape and bringing it back. Tape compression and all the rest is cumulative, so laying down tracks, bouncing and mixing in the analog domain brings its essence to the party. Final master is either to digital or in the digital domain. The SPARS Codeis pretty much discontinued because it doesn't present enough detail, but even today many recordings are done as AAD. There are engineers who will do everything DDD but in reality they send it out to analog for mixing, then right back in. The mixing board also adds to the sound quality (and all the track bleed that comes with it) as well.

[halen99]

I don't think you're going to get that warm tape feeling from JUST digitally producing a mix, then recording the final mix on tape and bringing it back. Tape compression and all the rest is cumulative, so laying down tracks, bouncing and mixing in the analog domain brings its essence to the party. Final master is either to digital or in the digital domain. The [url=http://en.[CENSORED].org/wiki/SPARS_Code]SPARS Code[/url]is pretty much discontinued because it doesn't present enough detail, but even today many recordings are done as AAD. There are engineers who will do everything DDD but in reality they send it out to analog for mixing, then right back in. The mixing board also adds to the sound quality (and all the track bleed that comes with it) as well.

I've gotten mixed opinions on this matter. since I typically just have piano and maybe some strings, I'll prob always want to mix it all on my digi, then run thru the tape. I'm wide open to anyone else's thoughts on this matter. Am I trying to do something not needed since most of what I do is 100% piano? Just trying to learn folks.

[roymond]

Didn't mean you don't get any desirable effects. Keep experimenting and create your own process and sound. That's what the world needs more of...

[king_arthur]

Well, here's something you could try: connect the stereo outs of your recorder to the inputs of the analog deck, put the analog deck into "monitor tape" mode (rather than "monitor source") and then tweak your mix that way. You will be hearing the mix a fraction of a second AFTER you actually mix it (since the tape monitor head is after the record head), but you'll be hearing what the analog tape mix will sound like and then you can adjust the levels / tone / etc. on your digital recorder to optimize the sound of the analog-ized mix. Again. mix pretty hard onto analog tape, if for no other reason that overcoming tape hiss as much as possible.

Hope you can tell that a bunch of us ARE interested in the results of your experiments, and since you've already paid for the analog decks... go for it!

Charles (KA)

[halen99]

I took some responses and tried again. here is a true stereo version of the tape version.

http://www.TommySkeoch.com/playing%20GOD_TEAC2.mp3

Sounds better but still a bit if noise in the background. Is it warmer then the digital .. you tell me.

Eddie

[Paco Del Stinko]

. Is it warmer then the digital .. you tell me.

You can hear a bit of hum at the start of the tape version, but I would definitley consider the tape version as softer sounding, and yes, a bit wamer. The notes may not be as well defined or as articulate as on the digital version, though. I think there's something to all of this, and perhaps a good idea is to find which approach is best suited for what you are recording, and for how you want to deliver it in the end.

[halen99]

. Is it warmer then the digital .. you tell me.

You can hear a bit of hum at the start of the tape version, but I would definitley consider the tape version as softer sounding, and yes, a bit wamer. The notes may not be as well defined or as articulate as on the digital version, though. I think there's something to all of this, and perhaps a good idea is to find which approach is best suited for what you are recording, and for how you want to deliver it in the end.

The plan is to enter this song for this months round of: http://www.songoftheyear.com/

I assume with playing around more I can get rid of the hum. My question to all of you is should I keep digital or go for luke warm? Maybe it's a matter of taste but all of this at the least is interesting.

Eddie

[Billy's Little Trip]

Eddie, did you use any noise reduction (dolby) etc?
Also, you may want to make the tape tracks your primary, then move the digital tracks up under the tape tracks for definition. Just a thought.

But in all honesty, if you want to give tape the real test, record directly to tape, then transfer it to digital.

[Paco Del Stinko]

record directly to tape, then transfer it to digital.

I thought that that was what you did, Eddie. Yes, if you are capable to try it that way, give it a go. Funny, every now and then I talk myself out of getting a reel to back up my digital stuff, but I think some of my older cdr's may be getting a bit funky.

[halen99]

No I didn't feel the need to record directly to tape since It's pretty much just digital piano anyhow. Feeding protools thru the reel would sound exactly the same in my little mind. Yeah there are strings there too but keep in mind I have 2 reel to reels.. this experiment was done with a single track unit. The fostex is 8 track which I will play with at another time. You will probably say to do it right with the fostex right?

Eddie

[Reist]

I don't understand any of these terms. I guess I should buy some analog equipment someday. It sounds really interesting.

[Mostess]

This thread has been annoyingly civil. Let me warn Mr. Halen about the road he is traveling.

It's beyond me how anyone can claim that the subtle (and admittedly pretty) overdrive/compression that happens when you saturate tape is a benefit that outweighs the costs of medium storage, equipment maintenance, loss of audio fidelity, temporal distortions. It takes time to cue up a tape. It takes guts to thread a particularly valuable master tape: if it breaks, you better be a damned good splicer. I have reel-to-reel masters from high school that I'm scared to take out of the box! Now that's charming!

I once wrote on this board:

...4-tracking was no picnic, either. Every second I spent rewinding was a second I could have spent playing. And that was a lot of seconds! That stupid little box sucked plenty of soul out of my music.

I'm not going back to old cassettes in cracked cases slowly print-through-ing my musical history into hissy garbage. No more ghosts of previous takes haunting my final ones. No more wow and flutter. No more trying to replicate my favorite mix-down.

Grass is always greener on the other side. I'm sure that 90%* of the folks who swear that analog makes magical warm fuzzies, unattainable by digital means, are just imagining things. Like the college graduate who can't bring himself to throw away his high school jeans---now patched, frayed, and 6 inches too tight in the waist---because they are so "comfortable," people romanticize the past. I remember how intense and vibrant music used to sound on my folk's 8-track, tube-powered, knob-controlled stereo. It was because I was 5, and I could still hear a 20,000Hz tone, and I'd never really listened to music before. It was not because analog/tape/8-track/vacuum tubes/knobs are inherently awesome.

Of course, I never participated in the analog equipment arms race of the '80s, but I did learn how to record on one of these, which couldn't have been too shabby. It was even in a reasonably sound-proofed room with a glass isolation room, a patch-bay with a bunch of digital effects boxes. And I really don't miss it. Though it was an easy way to impress girls. That was good. Actually, forget I said anything.

*Of course, each of you is one of the other 10% who are actually capable of warming your backsides with that charming analog signal hissing through your speakers.

[halen99]

Some friends of mine put out a double CD called Real to Reel and recorded all analog last year. They swore by the "warmness" and convinced me to play around with it. Fast forward to a couple months ago they were digging thru old tapes putting together a box set. They didn't had an 8 track to play their old tapes thru so they borrowed mine. At any rate it's all just for fun. I don't take myself seriously or anything. I'm a much better web guy then musician.

Here's an update, I took my fostex in the shop last night for servicing. I will then try to record on it. maybe the teac isn't suited for this anyhow since it's not multi-track and the foxtex is.

Eddie