A Democratic Songfight!

Links and other hanky panky that doesn't have to do with anything in particular.

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deshead
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Postby deshead » Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:00 am

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Oust The Mods
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:58 am

The mudsuckers will each have a custom title under their usernames that reads (appropriately) "mudsucker".

Everything that they say will be discounted and ridiculed as complete nonsense.
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:19 am

And we will need to take all of the forum postings and rewite it as an organized program.

What I'm thinking is that we can split the 3 fights up into 3 levels of accomplishment or expertise: Beginners, Intermediate and Advanced.

We can call it "Lightwieght" "Middleweight" and "Heavyweight".

Each catagory will have a set of projects that we, the members, will develop.

Every project will have specified songwriting objectives.

The members song will be evaluated by another member.

For example: Project one: Choose Your Title

(no more stoopid ass titles)

or Project Two: Write a Song to This (stoopid ass title) Here the title will be chosen by the evaluator.

Project Three: Write a song in the Key of A Minor
The evaluator will listen to the song and critique it based upon the stated objective.

At the Intermediate and Advanced levels the objectives will be more challenging.

Example: Intermediate Project One: Write a Song in B Dorian with a Lyrical Form of ABABCCDD

The challenges can be created by the members and combinations of simple challenges can be used to develop more complex challenges.

Each individual member can fight at their level of expertise.

The members song will be critiqued according to the objectives of the project.

The vote will be taken in each level for the best overall song.

The Mudsuckers will stay over here on their site and our team (the democratic one) will meet with the Old Mudsuckers for tournaments in which we will kick their asses.

It will be Trolls VS. Mudsuckers.
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:23 am

Also: Because our site is going to be democratic, it will always represent the current roster of members.

So if 5 girl bands join and 5 black rapper bands or 5 or 10 artists from France or Germany join they might vote for and elect officers that represent them.

So our club is not going to be a white boys club.
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:43 am

More about the projects:

We can have project manuals for each level.

They won't all be technical like the example I used above.

One group of projects could be An Introduction to Styles

In this set of projects the member gets experince with a wide range of popular stayles.

Or there can be a set of project based on one style.

The material will come from the knowledge that members post in the forums. In an organized format.
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Postby anti-m » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:57 am

Well for garshsake, go ahead and build this site already!

Less talk more rock!




-Em

"Sucking Mud and Various Other Substances Since 1973"
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Postby Leaf » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:09 pm

How do your write a song "in B Dorian"?

Does this mean the key center would be "B" with the dorian structure? What kind of chord progressions would one use to ensure that the key center remains a "B" while the arrangement of tones and semi-tones would suggest that dorian flavour?

I think the "evaluator" must be qualified to answer such questions, of else their evaluations would not be consistent with the requirement of the contest.


For someone who pretends to be an anarchist, you sure have a lot of structure.

I'm waiting for the URL by the way. Anytime.



You know, unless this is just more bullshit fantasy talk without a scrap of real actual work to back it up.
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:23 pm

It's just an example.

The material for the member would be culled from the forums,
sketched out and refined as we go.

The objectives would be in the project material.

Therefore the evaluator will have some idea about it from the material.

The Evaluator would most likely be a member who had already worked at developing the project material by writing a song in B Dorian.

The members will take turns practicing, performing and evaluating the projects.

We can have 5 sets of projects at each level or 25.

The member will select the set of projects and complete the entire set.

Let's say one level offers 5 sets of 5 projects. The perticipant can choose 3 of the five to complete the basic level.

After they finish the 3 sets, they move on to the next level.

The Evaluators only evaluate the song that they are assigned to. Since the evaluator already has done the projects or at least enough projects to understand how to approach the material, the evaluator can also serve as a coach for the participant.

Then after the evaluation the whole membership can make short voluntary reviews. But the reviewing will be cut down a bit because of the clearly focused project objectives and project evaluations.

(This is basically a democratic form within the overall democratic form.

It's based on assigning and electing clearly defined roles and the basic principle of taking turns)
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:26 pm

Also. I'm thinking that our site will be closed.

Only members can read and listen to what we are doing.

We may open the site to the public for certain events such as the Trolls VS. Mudsuckers matches.

Because this is only the tip of the iceberg. I don't want the mudsuckers to be aware of what we are planning to do.

But I firmly believe that our site will kick your mudsucking asses royally.
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:29 pm

Leaf wrote:I'm waiting for the URL by the way. Anytime.


Anytime you want to submit your dues.

There is no free lunch.
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:32 pm

The simplest way to get started is to get 10 charter members.

That would probably be about $25 per person.

The cost per member would go down after that.

Whatever the total cost is would be divided equally.

If it cost $500 then 500 registered users would pay $1 each.

This is how all real clubs get started and organize.
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Postby deshead » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:35 pm

I forget, am I a mudsucker or a troll?
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Postby Niveous » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:59 pm

anti-m wrote:"Sucking Mud and Various Other Substances Since 1973"


I never believed in love at first sight until right now.
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Postby anti-m » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:01 pm

Oust The Mods wrote: If it cost $500 then 500 registered users would pay $1 each.

This is how all real clubs get started and organize.


Indeed. Or you could all send me fistfuls of cash. I will start a hell of a club for y'all!

Oust, no one's gonna PAY to join your party when you've got nothing to show for it but hot air.

If you build it, they will come. Or perhaps they wont. In any case, I reckon you have to build it first to see how this all plays out. If you are so sure that your democratic venture will work, then put your money where your mouth is and register a URL and pay for some hosting. It costs about 7-10 dollars a month to get a site up and running.

You'll be up against some tough competition drumming up members, considering Songfight is FREE, but who knows? Perhaps your site will be as awesome as you say.

Do it now!
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Postby anti-m » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:11 pm

Oh Wow!

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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:34 pm

I am going to find 10 charter members who want to songwrite their way to democracy.

Maybe I'll find them in Europe or I'll go on tour in the States or maybe I'll find them on the Internet.

I would prefer to find them on the Internet since I want to pass the site on to the new owners.

I don't want to own the site.

Whatever the current roster of members, the members will own it b4ecause they are paying for it.

I don't want to set a precedence of having to meet anywhere but on the Internet.

After this is proven to work and to work better than what is currently being offered on the Internet, I would like to promote these forms for a wide variety of different sites that are already existing.
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:38 pm

Besides I don't have any technical savvy for putting up the site.

I suppose tou buy a space first.

Then can I just use the PHP that is available and get it modified as I need it?

I don't know.

I will have enough to do drafting a constitution and writing one or two project manuals.
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Postby deshead » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:13 pm

Oust The Mods wrote:I don't know.

Heh.

Why don't you ask in the Help&Howto forum?
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:25 pm

One of the other charter members will have to do that.

I wouldn't even know which questions to ask, let alone understand the answers.

This is a very ambitious project.

We need people.

Good people.

Democracy People.
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Postby anti-m » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:32 pm

Ok Oust, here's a to do list for you:

1. Start getting some technical savvy. If you’re going to be a responsible citizen in your internet democracy, you need to learn some basic shit, like how to set up a basic webpage. If a 5th grader can do it, you can too. Don’t come here whining for people to give you money to build a site you don’t even have the technical skills to construct! Take some initiative. PHPBB and other functionality such as you find on songfight is more advanced...but also something you can learn how to do. Do your research.

2. Determine what it would cost to set up this site. I suspect initially, for low traffic and small quantities of uploads / downloads, your basic $8.00 / month plan would work. Go here to learn more: http://www.dreamhost.com. Your host, when you choose one, is going to want ONE name/contact to send the bills to. You’ll likely have to be that guy, at least initially. You can try to round up cash ahead of time to pay for the start up, but I’ll tell ya, you certainly aren’t convincing ME to part with my cash to fund your endeavor. I suggest you invest in your utopia with your own cash, then invite participants. You may lose money, but you stand to get more participants if you can SHOW them what they’ll get for their money.

3. Start building the functionality of the site. You don’t need hosting to build the pieces of the site that will be eventually uploaded. If you had a website, but no home for it, you might actually be able to convince someone with a big heart to host it for you temporarily…just so that everyone could see what you were on about.

Do those three things, and people might start taking you seriously. Otherwise, your project is doomed to failure. Failure due to your own laziness / ineptitude.

("Wahhhh! Someone build me the site I want!)

[edit: and that's the last I'm going to say on this subject. Until I see items 1-3 accomplished.]

--Em
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Postby Oust The Mods » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:59 pm

Well that was a very motivatioal talk.

But if you think that the plans that I am constructing are the result of laziness you are slioghtly mistaken.

These plans are the result of alot of hard work and research.

And I've got alot more work to do before it is finished.

As in any organization, it's the members that need to make it work.

This is an excellent list to do.

But let's see if we can synthesize points of view, instead of debate.

Because i am not an elected official of the organization, I must cheat a little and appoint myself in a Pro Tem position.

I really don't want to do that. I want the members to serve.

But there are no members yet.

So, I have to decide whether I will be President Pro Tem (until the constitution is written and the office is filled by an elected member) or Secretary Pro Tem or Treasurer Pro Tem.

It might be best if I don't appoint myself Pres. Pro Tem.

Appointing myself Pres. Pro Tem might send the message out that I am looking to be the President.

I would rather like to guide the first three people through the motions of getting this going.

I might consider being the Secretary Pro Tem until one is elected.

As the Secretary Pro Tem I would do communications to promote the site, help organize the writing of some of the project sets, and keep a record of how we set up the organization so that the next generation would have something to refer to.

However, I think that my best input will be in just continuing to research how democratic organizations have operated for the past 2000 years and how it might be possible to translate that form to the Internet.

Which is exactly what I have been doing for the past 4 years since I first came here.

But the plans are coming together in my mind and they are ready for some brave people who want to try putting them into practice and making adjustments to it.

We have to get an experimental project going first.

I am almost tempted to go to the PHP company itself and get the people.

But they are not going to want to songfight!

I doubt if I can even get one person there to understand these ideas.

Not because they stoopid or because the plan is complicated.

But because the arts and disciplines I am seeking from people are a lost arts and disciples.

The past generation went to school and learned all of this computer stuff but their teachers sacraficed teaching the democratic arts.

Therefore, when I speak to anyone they act like I'm from Outer Space.

Actually what I am proposing is not radical at all.

The local PTA uses it.

The Board of Directors of the Coca-Cola company uses it.

The Village Hall uses it.

It's a very conservative and traditional form.

At least in the Western World.

All over the USA and Europe.
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Postby Oust The Mods » Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:32 am

The first step is an experiment.

I want to form 2 team of 10 people each.

Team A will start a cheap site

A website can be started for as little as $10.

So 10 charter members will begin by pitching in $1 each.

Then they will tranfer the ownership by degrees to Team B.

I am putting this word out on various websites.

So I don't need 10 people from this site.

I suggest that songfight elect or appoint a representative so that whatever we learn can be reported here and people can decide whether it has a possibility.

As long as I am going to do this, I want to get representatives from as many independent sites as possible.

In this manner, whatever results will have a greater influence on the entire web community.

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