Fair Fights

senza valore · Post by **senza valore** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:37 pm

I've only been around on SongFight! for the past 8 fights or so, but in that time I've already seen two fights won by artists who very blatently did not deserve it (beyond just a matter of my personal opinion.)

The first was <A HREF="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... t">History of My Broken Heart</A>, in which the deserving Billy's Little Trip / Wages track was tied with the far more mediocre Bushido Stylus, and the second was the recent And Counting fight with Dan Plus Add winning. In the case of both these fights, the artists in question (Bushido and Dan) implored personal friends via their websites to come here and vote for them. In both cases, their ploys obviously worked.

I have no doubt that this problem has come up in the past (with fans of <A HREF="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... ur_man">MC Frontalot</A>, perhaps?) and maybe it's simply accepted as a fact of life around here.

What I was pondering, though, is if there would be a simple way for the site to only accept votes from registered forum users. I think that if that small step was in place, that it would help combat the people who have nothing invested in SongFight! coming in and skewing the fights. It's not a huge deal, but it would be nice to see the people who are invested in the site and regularly involved to be rewarded when they make a great track instead of falling by the wayside of someone who's just passing through and trying to stroke their ego. Obviously, the regulars here take much more care to actually listen to the entries and vote on who they think is deserving, and it's too bad when that system can be broken so easily. When the description of the winner posted on the frontpage is openly <A HREF="http://danielhoughcouk.silverferret.co. ... mocking</A> that artist's 'strategy', then it seems that we have a problem.

Post by jb » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:42 pm

It's called "friend flooding" and is usually a symptom of either a new fighter or a popular fighter.

In the case of popular fighters, it is fightmaster's opinion (mostly mine, although I think Spud agrees) that we're never going to penalize someone for having fans.

In the case of newbies, if your song's not good enough to drum up enough support to beat 13-23 of some jerkoff's pals who show up to vote... uh... stop whining and get some fans, chump.

But of course, you're neither the first nor the last to mention this issue, and you are completely allowed to complain and suggest as you see fit.

jack · Post by **jack** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:45 pm

been discussed. multiple times. aint gonna happen.

nothing personal, but you're putting way to much emphasis on winning and not enough on all the other good things that happen when you submit a song (exposure to alot of people, reviews even...).

The Weakest Suit · Post by **The Weakest Suit** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:45 pm

don't forget the lord of oats win the week before with "thank god for memphis". or mcrt's "king me" win. or [insert almost any fight name here]. that's just the way it is. if you start restricting who can vote you may as well just call this place tuneflow2. the beauty of songfight is the friend-flooding. there is generally a consensus on the few that deserve to win each fight, but relying on the human condition to play into the voting just makes for a more free environment. anyway, it's the journey, not the destination, right?

adrift in a draft · Post by **adrift in a draft** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:45 pm

Rone had a stranger flood overturned didn't he? Where are the historians...

senza valore · Post by **senza valore** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:17 pm

jack wrote:nothing personal, but you're putting way to much emphasis on winning and not enough on all the other good things that happen when you submit a song (exposure to alot of people, reviews even...).

Actually, for me it honestly is about the journey and not the destination. I think that this is a fantastic forum for self-improvement and I am wholly interested in using the pressure of deadlines, receiving feedback, and being part of a community of my peers. All of that is far more beneficial to me than the 'bragging rights' or ego stroking that come with winning. As cliche and cheesy as it may sound, I think that we're all winners to be participating (or trolling, in my case) in the SongFight! community.

Which is where my point lay, in that I'd rather see active community members get their slight extra reward in the form of votes and support from their peers as opposed to someone just passing through and taking that. I agree that we shouldn't penalize someone just for having 'fans', it's just that I prefer those admirers were involved with SongFight! instead of people who probably couldn't care less about it.

jb wrote:In the case of newbies, if your song's not good enough to drum up enough support to beat 13-23 of some jerkoff's pals who show up to vote... uh... stop whining and get some fans, chump.

Fair enough.

I assumed that this had already been addressed long ago but I couldn't find the posts about it right off hand. No big deal and I appreciate the response.

Steve Durand · Post by **Steve Durand** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:29 pm

If you could recruit a band that consisted of about 11 or 12 people and voted for yourself every time you would win most fights.

There was an experimental poll done here a while ago that consisted of only the forum posters indicating who they would vote for. The way I interpreted the results it looked like most people voted for themselves. I find it hard to believe that everyone truly thought their's was the best song. So I don't necessarily think that the regulars are paragons of integrity.

I have tried real hard to not take the vote count too seriously. Unfortunately I am still rather disappointed every week when the results are posted.

Steve

jack · Post by **jack** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:32 pm

but steve, you have better than a win. you have fans here.

Steve Durand · Post by **Steve Durand** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:38 pm

jack wrote:but steve, you have better than a win. you have fans here.

Yeah, that really helps keep me going.

Steve

Reist · Post by **Reist** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:47 pm

sdurand wrote:I have tried real hard to not take the vote count too seriously. Unfortunately I am still rather disappointed every week when the results are posted.

I know how you feel, dude. I've started sucking it up though ... votes really mean nothing.

jack wrote:all the other good things that happen when you submit a song (exposure to alot of people, reviews even...).

I'm honestly starting to wonder about this. I generally don't get any truly useful feedback until I start whining about stuff in my 'eternal mixing problems' thread. My last song received basically all reviews like - "man ... the song is good but your falsetto sucks". The reviews are pretty pitiful these days.

However - I will take this moment to say that SF reviews are still infinitely better than garageband reviews - all those morons can take time to say is "stop singing like green day" and "get the guy who produces bon jovi to produce this and you will be famous". Just absolute garbage.

Billy's Little Trip · Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:22 am

Hey, thanks for the more deserving comment, Senza. But as stated, its all part of the how the chips fall kind of thing. But you will find that good songs will resurface at later dates, whether they won or not. That in itself means it was good and remembered.

Oh to have that new member smell again, all saucer eyed, like a young boy that just saw his first beeewb.
I think this is a pretty common question from new members. I was the same way when I was new around here.

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:13 am

Things go in cycles. There are times when the reviews are productive, when the voting seems fair, when the music seems better. Then we slide into a dark shadow for a while. Then the sun again rises. Maybe this is all just perception but I see it happening through the years. I've only had time to banter between tasks lately, not sit and listen and review (and hardly to submit). This will change. I'm sure others have the same situation going.

Paco Del Stinko · Post by **Paco Del Stinko** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:20 am

I love the reviews. Love the journey. Love the peaks and valleys of the cycles. Love Steve Durands music. Love the exposure as nobody would hear what I do otherwise. (Don't touch that one, please!

) Love the ideas both good and bad that pop up. Just a little love-fest. I'll stop before JB hollers at me.*

*I signed an early post with Love, Paco and he gave me the "Love? This is Songfight" business. Appropriately, of course.

the idiot king · Post by **the idiot king** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:53 am

Reïst wrote: I'm honestly starting to wonder about this. I generally don't get any truly useful feedback until I start whining about stuff in my 'eternal mixing problems' thread. My last song received basically all reviews like - "man ... the song is good but your falsetto sucks". The reviews are pretty pitiful these days.

it may not be the most polite criticism, but it's still criticism. i've found that unless someone says something like "this song sucks" or "not my cup of tea", there's generally a little insight, encouragement, or suggestion.

the reviews here are a large part of what i love about this place; the people who come back time and again legitimately care to hear other people's music. that's pretty flippin' awesome. way more awesome than votes or wins (check my track record to confirm this belief).

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:41 am

the idiot king wrote:
Reïst wrote: I'm honestly starting to wonder about this. I generally don't get any truly useful feedback until I start whining about stuff in my 'eternal mixing problems' thread. My last song received basically all reviews like - "man ... the song is good but your falsetto sucks". The reviews are pretty pitiful these days.
it may not be the most polite criticism, but it's still criticism. i've found that unless someone says something like "this song sucks" or "not my cup of tea", there's generally a little insight, encouragement, or suggestion.

the reviews here are a large part of what i love about this place; the people who come back time and again legitimately care to hear other people's music. that's pretty flippin' awesome. way more awesome than votes or wins (check my track record to confirm this belief).

Yeah not to pile on here, but saying "your falsetto sucks" is pretty specific about what the reviewer didn't like about your song. This is especially true if all of the reviews contained the same content. Reading someone's review containing the word "sucks" may be painful, and as I've come to learn perceived as a personal attack by the more thinly skinned fighters here, but it does nail down that reviewers stance with your song.

Criticism is a painful medicine to take sometimes, and there are certainly people out there (not necessarily here, but in the world in general) that criticize others just to make themselves feel superior. (See Simon Cowell as example A) You just have to take it all with a grain of salt. You either accept the fact that not everyone is going to love your music and move on or find another way to feel good about yourself.

rone rivendale · Post by **rone rivendale** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:50 pm

adrift in a draft wrote:Rone had a stranger flood overturned didn't he? Where are the historians...

Yeah, but in that case it wasn't a friend flood. It was some sort of prank. And the person/people who did it was dumb enough to flood all the votes all at one time.

I'd be in favor of a forum member only voting system. Just for the fact that ppl couldn't friend flood Melvin out of so many wins lol.