A question

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A question

Postby Spud » Thu May 29, 2008 10:52 pm

Good evening songfighters. I hope your songs are coming along. I have just had a preliminary listen to the songs submitted so far, and I must say that for the first time in over five years, I have been moved to consider not posting one of them. Although we reserve this right in the faq, since we have rarely done it in the past, THIS WOULD BE A RADICAL MOVE. Obviously, I will consult with JB on this, but in ANOTHER RADICAL MOVE, I am asking for your opinion.

The song in question contains offensive content. There is nothing new there. We have had a lot of offensive content in the past, and I have not been particularly bothered by it. In this case, however, I believe that there is a difference. Pretty much the same offensive content has been submitted to every fight for several weeks now, and we have allowed it. It's a little like that game where you say "in bed" at the end of every sentence. But it's the same game week after week. It never changes, and it's beginning to feel less and less like an artistic statement and more like just being in our face each time. I mean, you can say "in bed" after a few phrases and it might be funny, under the right circumstances. If you start using it in your everyday conversation, people start looking at you funny and not inviting you over for dinner. I am going to substitute the word FISH for the offensive content for illustrative purposes.

If the title was Been To China, it appears that this individual's lyrics would be something like this:

Been to FISH
Been to FISH
I been to FISH FISH FISH FISH FISH FISH FISH
FISH to China
FISH to China
FISH FISH FISH FISH FISH to China.

If the title was Accelerator, they might go like this:

FISH
FISH
AccelaFISHerator
FISH
FISH
FISH my AcceleFISHerator
FISH your AcceleFISHerator
gonna FISH your Accelerator FISH it FISH it FISH it.

I think you get my drift.

It's not so much the FISH to which I object.

It's that it would appear that the individual submitting these entries is more interested in hearing himself talk about FISH on the internet than in this competition, and that he is using our server space and bandwidth (at our expense), to promulgate his interest in talking about FISH as often as possible.

Some of you, in your reviews, have remarked that you are tired of FISH, and hope that he might move on to another subject matter, offensive or otherwise. However, it is comes as no surprise that this week's submission is once again about FISH, and how Beautiful the subjects of his FISHing are (his sister and his mother).

I, for one, do not believe that he is giving either the site or his audience (that's you) the respect that they deserve, and as mentioned, I have an urge to simply not post another one of these FISHy songs.

So there is my question. Do you want to hear another song about FISH from this guy this week? Would you feel that not posting it would set a dangerous precedent? Would it inhibit you from entering, for fear that we might not post the fruits of your hard efforts? If we fail to post the song, do the terrorists win? I am willing to be wrong on this.
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Re: A question

Postby j$ » Fri May 30, 2008 3:10 am

A couple of thoughts, that probably don't answer your question directly

1. The repeated use of the word FISH shows (to me at least) that the significance of the word is meaningless to the artist in question, more so with each song s/he includes it in.

2. A little like LEF, it seems, the more others respond 'negatively' to the content the more delighted our FISHmonger becomes. It will not go away unless you make a decision of some sort. Deep down, i imagine, that is what the artist wants - 'too FISHy for SF - yeah!'

3. I would never ban/not listen to a song because it was offensive. I would however rush to block a song that I personally found boring.

4.Personal choice - your website. Bringing a political element into the discussion complicates the issue unneccessarily.

4a. You have no duty to host everything that's submitted to you. It's not like you're asking people to pay for the privilege. If you don't like a particular entry, don't put it up. Nothing to do with censorship. If the artist in question really likes the song, and feels aggrieved, then they can always self-host it and put a link in the review thread.

5. After years of succesfully hosting SF with JB I think you have enough respect from the regular listeners that whatever you choose, you will have support. From me anyway and I would hope most other people who take the time to read your reasoning.

So yeah, my point would appear to be FISH the crappy song in the ass.
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Re: A question

Postby frankie big face » Fri May 30, 2008 6:17 am

Um....have you actually talked to the artist about his songs? Maybe that would be a good first step. I'm not going to suppose what the conversation would be like, but at least you can say you tried reasoning with him.

It's probably worth noting that a cursory review of the reviews showed that many listeners on this site actually responded positively to these songs (none of which I have heard). One long-time songfighter described the artist as "promising" but then again, this songfighter also started and perpetuated a thread about having anal sex with his girlfriend (which you didn't censor or delete--at least this person is making offensive songs.

So that's my advice: talk to the guy. After you do, you'll probably have a much stronger inclination to do one thing or the other.
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Re: A question

Postby erik » Fri May 30, 2008 6:34 am

I think that it would be one thing if these songs were just farts in a microphone, but the songs sound like the people took at least some time to make something that people could enjoy (and then set it against lyrics that were designed to make people either 1. uncomfortable or 2. giggle, depending on your sensibilities.) If I had decided that I didn't want the songs on my website anymore, I'd do the following.

A. Write dude an email saying "blahlabhalbhlahblahblah thanks for sending in songs to my website, but I don't want to post any new songs from you because of the following reasons: blabhalbhalhblahblah. I don't want you to waste time making another song for my website, because I will not be posting it. I wanted to let you know before you got spent any time in vain on the next title. I hope you find a better place to showcase your music. Sincerely, chachacha"

B. Post the song you already got, and then don't post anymore.

C. Encourage people in general to not review songs that are clearly trolls.

D. Stop picking titles like "How Beautiful She Is" when there is someone around who likes to sing about rape.
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Re: A question

Postby frankie big face » Fri May 30, 2008 6:39 am

erik wrote:D. Stop picking titles like "How Beautiful She Is" when there is someone around who likes to sing about rape.


And while you're at it, stop picking titles like "In Bed" if you're then going to use that as an example of how obnoxious a phrase can be.

And also, don't make next week's title "I Like Rape" or "Rape Rape Rape" or "Who Wants to Be Raped?" 'cause that would just be rubbing it in.
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Re: A question

Postby HeuristicsInc » Fri May 30, 2008 6:46 am

is the person that wrote these songs even on the boards? i haven't heard the fights... ah, okay, now i know who it is anyway.
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Re: A question

Postby jb » Fri May 30, 2008 7:42 am

erik wrote:D. Stop picking titles like "How Beautiful She Is" when there is someone around who likes to sing about rape.


Well, we're certainly not going to let the chance that someone might write a particular kind of song affect title selection. Otherwise we'd avoid anything that could lead to prog rock.
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Re: A question

Postby frankie big face » Fri May 30, 2008 7:51 am

Yeah, I agree with JB about the title selection. It doesn't seem to matter what title is chosen--this guy will sing about rape. I also think Erik may have been making a joke.
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Re: A question

Postby Spud » Fri May 30, 2008 7:53 am

Frankie, I have pointed out that it is not the obnoxiousness of the songs that bug me. I can take an obnoxious song once in a while, especially when the title suggests it. His first entry won, and I didn't complain about that, either. It is the fact that we are going to get the same obnoxious material no matter what the title. That doesn't really sound like it's in the spirit of the competition, does it? That bugs me more than the subject matter. I mean, suppose that someone recorded a song with an instrumental bridge, and each week repeatedly spoke the title over that bridge, without changing anything else in the song, and entered that same song with edited bridge, week after week. How many weeks in a row should we post it? five? ten? forever? The first few I could take as an artistic statement. But how many before the statement has been made and it's time to move on? I don't know.

Bill, I don't know if he is on the boards or not. I can't find a post where he identifies himself. Anyone know?

I have emailed the artist in question, inviting him to join the conversation.
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Re: A question

Postby frankie big face » Fri May 30, 2008 8:14 am

I know what bothers you. I get it. Remember The Templates? That was funny because it was just two weeks and done. This isn't because it's continuing and apparently the songs are somewhat offensive to you. So don't post them. It's in your right and it sounds like we won't be missing anything.
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Re: A question

Postby roymond » Fri May 30, 2008 8:29 am

Are we talking about Phillip Glass' son? Plus, it's Frankie who tends to go prog on us...

I think it's perfectly valid to stop posting his pieces, but I currently skip over lots of songs so I'm not sure I'll notice myself.
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Re: A question

Postby Billy's Little Trip » Fri May 30, 2008 9:20 am

At what point do you draw the line for censorship? I know it's your choice because it's your site, but your site is made up of a community of artists and the freedom of self expression is pretty important. People can skip the song if it's too brutal to their ears the same way they can skip it if the song is just terrible sounding or lame.
I haven't heard the songs in question, but I would probably listen once and judge it on it's artistic value. If I like it, I add it to my play list.

My only concern here is that I too will get abrasive or use foul language in a song to project outward or for impact in describing my story. To some, using the word fuck is ignorant and/or offensive. To me, it just a word that gets a lot off my chest, sometimes in a positive way and sometimes in a hostile way. I think of it as a word like the Hawaiian word aloha. :P
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Re: A question

Postby Spud » Fri May 30, 2008 9:34 am

Good question, BLT. I myself am not 100% sure what offends me most about these songs. Obviously, it's a cumulative effect, but I cannot deny that four songs in a row about rape might be part of it. If he had written four songs in a row about Beer, would I be as upset? Probably not. I would like to think that we have given him the benefit of the doubt to date. However, I am beginning to be concerned that he is just coming here to piss in our pond every week.
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Re: A question

Postby Rabid Garfunkel » Fri May 30, 2008 9:44 am

Billy's Little Trip wrote:My only concern here is that I too will get abrasive or use foul language in a song to project outward or for impact in describing my story.

I think Neil Thrun set the bar pretty high on that count, for moderators' & listeners' tolerances. :wink:

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Re: A question

Postby Billy's Little Trip » Fri May 30, 2008 10:07 am

Well, if he was trying to get attention, it worked.

I remember when the song "smack my bitch up" hit the airwaves, it was not accepted very well, but the band, The Prodigy, had other good contributions to show their musical relevance and that the lyrics were meant as being intense with all that you do....kind of thing.
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Re: A question

Postby Hoblit » Fri May 30, 2008 10:15 am

Bottom line is the interpretation of the rules.

Is he writing and recording a song TO the title every week? Songs written (and/or recorded) before the title is offered would be against the rules. Templates with different vocals on the bridge wouldn't count. Songs not written to the title would also be against the rules.

I think you are looking for the right interpretation of the rules here. You have to ask yourself if he's breaking the rules.

Here is a grey area you are having trouble with. Is he writing songs to the title? Or is he writing songs to troll?

I wouldn't worry to much about 'satisfying' the troll by not submitting the song. A troll is a troll and you're just getting another one of those guys that used to come here and preach about how were doing the community wrong according to his specs.

If you don't think he's trolling and therefore is just focused on one subject and is legitimately trying to tie in the title with it, then post the song.

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Re: A question

Postby Spud » Fri May 30, 2008 10:49 am

Thanks for your perspective, Hoblit. I do not think he is breaking the rules. I also do not think that his musical skills are lacking, nor that his songs are without merit.
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Re: A question

Postby Billy's Little Trip » Fri May 30, 2008 11:10 am

Ok, I just went and had a listen. I don't take things too seriously in life, and I had no problem with robot candidate. But then I listened to his Matter Of Perspective song. I don't care for it.
Last edited by Billy's Little Trip on Fri May 30, 2008 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A question

Postby The Weakest Suit » Fri May 30, 2008 11:24 am

erik wrote:Sincerely, chachacha

:lol:

it would be great if these songs were done by Oust the Mods.

i've just been waiting for some child-abuse-fighting-entity to get tipped off as to what is being hosted here and start to throw a media shit-fit about how this site is promoting child rape.

listen to them all at once, and the word FISH loses all meaning. i find them absurd and funny (only for their singleminded dedication to FISH). the "FISH on me...FISH me on" made me chuckle. i figured this guy would be in two or three more fights and fade away. part of me that i should probably be ashamed of is kind of curious to see how he can work FISH into the different titles, and the production and instrumentation is better than the majority of songfight entries (mine definitely included). i'm not trying to defend this person at all, i'm just saying, i've heard songs in every fight that are worse on my ears than these.

i do wonder, though, if he switched from FISH to racial slurs, if the songs would still be posted? where's the line?
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Re: A question

Postby Billy's Little Trip » Fri May 30, 2008 12:36 pm

After thinking a bit about this. I've always thought of SF as kind of an interactive E-radio station. I even called it one in a song once.
With that said, a radio station will choose not to play something if a vote from the music directors, or whoever makes these kind of decisions, if they feel it goes against the listening interests of their target audience. And I would imagine that their sponsors have a big part of that decision as well.

So I say that the Admin and mods put it to a vote to either:
#1. Bleep out the bad struff
#2. Stop posting it
#3. Post it and hope that it doesn't come back to haunt you at a later date.

As far as my vote, if I had one. I say let it stay even though I think he's trying to throw it in your face. Self expression and freedom of speech are much more important to me than who might be offended. Now if you will please excuse me, I feel that I need a shower after listening to that crap.
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Re: A question

Postby erik » Fri May 30, 2008 1:09 pm

What do people think this person is trying to throw in someone's face? It's not like there's a banner anywhere that says "All that we ask is that you don't write songs about rape 4 titles in a row" but he's doing it anyways.
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Re: A question

Postby Caravan Ray » Fri May 30, 2008 3:40 pm

I like fish

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