wiki plz

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Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

Hey, if I can't scrape the data, I can't list the data. I have no intention of re-doing anything except adding new fights and integrating new data at this point, so... it's a wiki, if you want to help, go ahead. :) The vote totals are all off on things relating to <3, then, too (artist & fight pages).

That guy named x<sub>0</sub> is lucky he even got listed.
fluffy wrote:what I want to do is terminology
fluffy wrote:what we really want for an informational archive
;)
Those database schema would be useful in the actual archive!
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.

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Re: wiki plz

Post by fluffy »

YES EVERYTHING I WRITE IS CONSISTENT AND UNIVERSAL

Quoting things out of context to make me look flighty and inconsistent is a dick move, and also completely unconstructive and only reinforces my belief that you are a huge raging asshole. Please don't do that.

I mean, what point were yiu even trying to make?
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

fluffy wrote:I mean, what point were yiu even trying to make?
Internet communication. le sigh.
I'm only one person. I'm not redoing everything. It's a wiki. It is what it is. You can help make it better. Or not. That is the point.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.

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Re: wiki plz

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

fluffy wrote:Quoting things out of context to make me look flighty and inconsistent is a dick move, and also completely unconstructive and only reinforces my belief that you are a huge raging asshole. Please don't do that.

I mean, what point were yiu even trying to make?
Seeing as how you are always so kind to help me out with my proofreading, I figure I should be so kind.

...on second thought, never mind. It'll just make you mad at me. :lol:

And MG, stop being yourself to everyone. And I don't appreciate all the hard work you are doing just to win my approval. Didn't you get hugged enough growing up? :D
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Re: wiki plz

Post by roymond »

I think what the huge raging asshole is trying to say that he's scraped together some useful information in a way that persists to a degree that isn't completely known quite yet but he's working on that. Also, this isn't the end-all-be-all song fight information archive, but it's possibly a pretty useful POC.

The most relevant object in music information systems like this is the song (especially in this community). The lowest atomic particle may be an artist. When you define the artists involved in the lyric, music, performance, production, art work, and engineering, then you define the song. Put songs together for a fight. Bands are an amalgam of artists that share some sort of relationship for a given time/purpose, often unknown to anyone but the artists. Me thinks building that level of granularity in a wiki for what could more appropriately could be called "liner notes" is over kill and unrealistic.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

I love you, BLT. Will you hug me?
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.

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Re: wiki plz

Post by fluffy »

Right, I know. But what was the point you were trying to make in pointing out where I used "I" one time and the "collective we" another time? Why excerpt a couple of sentences that have no meaning outside of their context?

I'm glad that you've decided to make a project of this. Maybe it will lead to something great that everyone likes. I'm just skeptical that a wiki is really the right way to collect this information, when it feels like a more structured database with the possibility of user submissions would be more useful. Less Wikipedia, more IMDb. It's certainly possible to add extensions like that to a wiki, as well, via structured template tags and auto-crawl bots and plugins and so on, and for now I see no reason not to contribute to things to see how they grow. I also suspect that when the novelty wears off, this will go the way of all the other SF Wiki projects as well. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not making any bets either way.
roymond wrote:I think what the huge raging asshole is trying to say that he's scraped together some useful information in a way that persists to a degree that isn't completely known quite yet but he's working on that. Also, this isn't the end-all-be-all song fight information archive, but it's possibly a pretty useful POC.
Sure, I agree with that. I'm just taking issue with how MG decided to excerpt a couple of things with apparently no reason, and hasn't said what the reason for that was but it sure as hell felt like an attack on me. It left a sour taste in my mouth, in any case.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by fluffy »

Billy's Little Trip wrote:
fluffy wrote:Quoting things out of context to make me look flighty and inconsistent is a dick move, and also completely unconstructive and only reinforces my belief that you are a huge raging asshole. Please don't do that.

I mean, what point were yiu even trying to make?
Seeing as how you are always so kind to help me out with my proofreading, I figure I should be so kind.
I saw the error but didn't give a shit, as I was typing on a phone while already giving a shit (to the toilet).
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

I will admit, I enjoyed looking at my history at a glance here at the mighty SF. I bet if I had a graph showing high points that I made the most income IRL, it would exactly reflect the periods that I wasn't submitting songs here at SF, lol.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

I was just joking. It was funny. I was laughing. Apparently you weren't. Because you were going on and on about this database that's most likely never going to happen, and you start with "I want this" and end with "we want that". That is funny to me. I'm sorry. It wasn't an argument against your point, or a dismissal thereof.

As has been pointed out to me several times in this community "go ahead and do the work, and it might be appreciated". I don't intend on learning anything about wiki extensions at this point. Yes, it would be the 'correct' way to implement that data, but seeing as how the archive is already hard to parse, I don't see there being a time where human intervention is not needed unless Song Fight itself implements a database schema. Many artists will never show up again to fill out some of that extra meta-data, and if they do, surely a wiki is easiest for them.

A lot of my motivation for this was to add information about song fighters who have disappeared, but I've enjoyed their songs for years. The archive import was mostly just a starting point to prove the usefulness. It's fun and I do enjoy the added statistics - now the next step is stalking and importing Niveous's mountain of data.

A lot of other artists' motivation is a place to put their liner notes. I think that's cool. I would personally never go in depth about my songs, but one-line statements and such are interesting, and I think what Jan's doing is really cool.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.

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Re: wiki plz

Post by fluffy »

Okay, fine. Just as a protip, quoting individual statements out of context like that almost universally seems like a nitpick-style attack, at least to me.

Obviously a database needs to be populated from somewhere, and a lot of the information I'd like to see going into it would have to be user-contributed. I just think that having a structured database that people can submit to is better than having a freeform wiki. At the very least, I feel that it would be helpful if there were some templates that can be used to seed the data that could then later go into a database or have an external bot or added plugin to do all the interesting data transforms on.

So, if you like, adapt my proposal for a participant database schema above into a wiki template or whatever. I'm a lot more familiar with databases than wiki templates, but I know that wiki templates can be parameterized in such a way to provide that sort of fine-grained information.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Spud »

Manhattan Glutton wrote:... unless Song Fight itself implements a database schema.
I was going to do this, but it's too late. It would break everyone's data-scraping schemes.

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Re: wiki plz

Post by jb »

I think that wiki's pretty cool. Keep going.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

fluffy wrote:I'm a lot more familiar with databases than wiki templates, but I know that wiki templates can be parameterized in such a way to provide that sort of fine-grained information.
A lot of the stuff is already parameterized into templates. There's probably room for improvement, but it's not hard to automate it back into a database if I had to. Actually, I have an XML database of what I scraped that I sent to Sam for the Jukebox.

What it really comes down to is I'm more interested in growing a community of equal contributors rather than a pristine database that people look at from afar. Sure, someone can come and shit things up, but as long as people care, it'll all sort itself out.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.

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Re: wiki plz

Post by fluffy »

Right, it's just that if we (meaning the generic Song Fight people who might be doing analysis on this data) want long-term viability of the various community contributions (links between artists and so on) then it would be nice to define some of those things that we want to define in a structured way. Just waving your hands and saying "the community will fix it" puts a huge burden on the community, which will probably not have a tendency to want to go back and fix/normalize data after spending a lot of time putting it in to begin with. I know that I personally wouldn't, anyway, but I do want to see a lot of stuff done with this data, like being able to find the N-order connections between bands and so on.

I mean obviously there's no magic solution to get the data in there to begin with, but it would be nice for the data to be useful once someone DOES add it.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by irwin »

The wiki should automatically calculate each fighter's Ken number.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by JonPorobil »

Is that like a Kevin Bacon number, but for collabs?

Not very fun, when it comes down to it. Of the people who have a Ken number, it would be about 90% 1s and 10% 2s.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

fluffy wrote:meaning the generic Song Fight people
Hey, I've only done a few collabs with him. Leave me out of this. :P

edit: Ooops. I forgot your quote/context rule.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by JonPorobil »

Billy's Little Trip wrote:
fluffy wrote:meaning the generic Song Fight people
Hey, I've only done a few collabs with him. Leave me out of this. :P

edit: Ooops. I forgot your quote/context rule.
Heh.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by fluffy »

FWIW, sfbase.net is now whitelisted for mp3 hotlinking, so those "download" links should finally work now.
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Re: wiki plz

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

Thanks. One thing to cross off the to-do list!
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.

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Re: wiki plz

Post by Lunkhead »

fluffy, if you want structured data that's tied in to the archive data, let me know. My app runs off a MySQL database, and I could conceivably add tables and UIs for the kind of stuff you're talking about. My time is also pretty limited, though, so it would be more likely to happen if it could be implemented in relatively small steps.

Alternatively, if you or anybody else wants an easy starting point for a project like that, it might save time to use a data dump from my site. I can give anybody who wants it a URL to get my whole artist/fight database at once, in XML, JSON, or CSV. It didn't take MG long to write a scraper, but it sounds like he's had to deal with many issues that I'd already dealt with, so there was probably some reinvention of the wheel, and then problems in corner cases like <3, etc. which are handled fine by my site.

I don't have the artist profile info yet, but I plan to add that soon (thanks for the data dump, MG, though I think I'm actually just going to do my own scrape, since I found a relatively easy way to do that). Really, though, that data set is very small and pretty old and doesn't seem terribly relevant anymore at this point. I think only something like <80 artists out of the >2600 have it, most of it is >4-5 years old, and none of it is <~2 years old. Probably the only data from the artist profiles that's relevant to my app or the kind of querying you're talking about is the "See Also" stuff, for linking artists together, and the rest of the profile info is better off in a wiki. At least there it has a better chance of ever being updated.
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