SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

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SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby Lunkhead » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:06 pm

Don't read this thread if you don't want to know about what happens in the movies!

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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILER

Postby Lunkhead » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:14 pm

OK, so, let's get down to it.

Rey's lineage: My money is on her being Luke's daughter, Erin thinks she's a secret twin sister of Kylo Ren's. We'll see.

I really hope they have some explanation for why Finn decided to go rogue and developed a conscience.

I'm a bit wary about the new supreme leader bad guy character. Someone told me there was a reference to some bigger bad guy than the emperor in the prequel trilogy though. We'll see. I thought that part was kind of cheesy.

I'm very scared of what will happen when they give Mark Hamill some dialog. Having seen him a couple times recently in the new "The Flash" TV show I don't know if he can be anything less than terribly over the top and campy.

Some have complaints about how much this movie paraphrases the plots of Episodes IV and VI. That only bugged me a little bit. I'm willing to give them a pass on that as long as they don't keep retreading things too much in the next two. At least repeating the old good movies is a safer idea than venturing out into new garbage like in the prequel trilogy.

One thing is for sure, do not walk out onto any metal catwalks over large gaping pits in the Star Wars universe, or you will die. :( I'm kind of bummed they killed Han. I was thinking beforehand that with Poe Damaren they had two Han Solos in the movie, so I guess that should have been a tipoff.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILER

Postby Lunkhead » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:44 pm

Also what is up with coming up with a name and armor for Captain Phasma and casting somebody good as her but then barely giving her any screen time and not giving her anything to do? Did she really wind up in a trash compactor? Or will she return to have a real presence in the future installments...?

Also, has the First Order been destroyed except for key leaders? If so, who will the protagonists be fighting against now...?

And did the Star Killer destroy Coruscant? I couldn't tell/remember what planets those were. Was that a a metaphorical parting of ways with the prequel trilogy?
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILER

Postby ken » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:17 pm

When i saw this the second time I noticed that Finn grabs the pokey ball out of the Millennium Falcon detritus when he is patching up Chewey!
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILER

Postby Lunkhead » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:52 pm

Ooh, good eye. I missed that one.

Apparently the "capital planet" that got destroyed was not Coruscant, but Hosnian Prime, oops!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coruscant
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILER

Postby HeuristicsInc » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:07 am

Lunkhead wrote:Someone told me there was a reference to some bigger bad guy than the emperor in the prequel trilogy though.


Darth Plagueis? He was Palpatine's mentor, but Palpatine said he killed him in his sleep.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby ken » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:40 am

I read a thing on the internet that postulates that Rey is Obiwan Kenobi's granddaughter. Any thoughts on that?
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILER

Postby user » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:39 pm

Lunkhead wrote:I really hope they have some explanation for why Finn decided to go rogue and developed a conscience.
He was kidnapped as a baby and grew up brainwashed by the First Order, but he was only ever a janitor up until Episode VII. It's his first combat mission that awakens his conscience or his objection to the First Order, because it's then that he first sees how brutal they are to innocent people. I'm not sure that we need much more explanation than that.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby Lunkhead » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:08 pm

I disagree. One moment overrides a lifetime of brainwashing, and only for this one guy and not for any other stormtrooper ever. It seems to me like he is such a statistical outlier that some explanation would be nice.

Obiwan Kenobi's granddaughter ... I did hear that there was suggestion of a romantic relationship for Kenobi protrayed in the Clone Wars cartoon series. Could be. It would probably be a surprise for more people than if she were Luke or Leia's daughter, since most people probably haven't watched the Clone Wars series and don't know about the possibility of Kenobi lineage.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby ken » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:15 pm

I thought Finn was also awakened with the force. I hadn't thought that it was just his first day on the job. It seems unlikely that the First Order kidnaps children and then puts them through rigorous testing to see whether they should be janitors or Stormtroopers. It also seems unlikely you could get a promotion or something. He was clearly trained in both things. I can't explain it either, but I think it has to be more than just the shock of seeing violence that wakes him up.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby fluffy » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:53 pm

YAY I CAN FINALLY READ AND COMMENT ON THIS THREAD

I thought it was really, really, really obvious that Rey is Luke's kid? I mean, when she picked up the light saber and got that giant psychic infodump about her lineage? I feel like it was pretty specifically saying she was Luke's kid, and Luke left her on Not-Tatooine to fend for herself. Also, you gotta wonder who Luke was talking to in the teaser trailer:



I liked the movie a lot. It didn't seem like the Second Coming or anything to me, but it was definitely a fun, enjoyable movie. I did get really annoyed with a lot of the CG characters though; the technology just isn't quite there yet, still. Cantina lady looked so fake, the scenes where BB-8 was CG instead of a puppet looked fake and obvious, etc.

I also don't get why people criticize Carrie Fischer for, you know, aging, when she's still looking great - and way better than Harrison Ford or Mark Hamill. Good ol' double standards I guess. (On the other hand, wow, Chewbacca hasn't aged one bit!)

There were a few silly logic holes that kind of pulled me out of the movie too. Like, wow, it sure is convenient that the Starkiller Base needs exactly the amount of energy stored in a specific sun to perform a specific attack, and couldn't fire, like, 5 minutes earlier when they realized their defenses were failing. For example.

But all in all I loved it and I'm actually looking forward to the sequel, which isn't something I've ever felt about Star Wars before. (I was 5 when Episode 6 came out and even if I had more than a few vague memories of seeing it in the theater I probably had no concept of a sequel, much less any reason to expect Star Wars would get another one.)
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby jb » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:18 pm

Interesting. I was also 5 in 1977, but I was subsequently obsessed with all things Star Wars. I remember walking out of the theater with a fervent desire to BE Luke Skywalker. I have a lot of memories of playing by myself in the dirt of a Valdosta horse farm, throwing clods of dirt around as if they were blasts from the Millennium Falcon's guns, X-wings, and TIE fighters. It makes a satisfying "poof" sound and puff of dirt when you throw one up and hit it with another one.

I remember watching the Christmas special, but I don't remember the Christmas special itself. I had a lot of action figures. I had an X-wing and Darth Vader's TIE Interceptor. I was given a model Millennium Falcon which I never possessed the patience to assemble, and I had a 1/8 scale remote control R2 when I was 8. Big memories for me as a kid, running around my back yard (we moved to Pennsylvania in 1980) playing rebel base on Hoth. I was always Dak for some reason. Though I never got crushed by an AT-AT.

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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby fluffy » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:57 pm

Note that I was 5 in 1983, when Episode 6 (Return of the Jedi) came out. I didn't have a lot of context for the movie at that point. I also vaguely remember seeing Episode 2 in the theater (maybe my first memory? I'd have been 2 at the time) since I remember the scene where R2D2 falls in the swamp scaring the crap out of me. But it's possible my memory of that is from seeing it on VHS much later, since the oldest kid next door was HUGELY into Star Wars and had all the toys and so on. Memories are so fallible, amirite?

In any case, I didn't really get into Star Wars until college, because I had a roommate who was REALLY into it and it rubbed off on me. We saw all of the Special Edition rereleases when they came out, and even with all their flaws I was then excited for the prequels. Until I saw The Phantom Menace on opening night.

I only saw episode 2 after a SIGGRAPH panel on the CG effects had me interested in the visuals (turns out all the good stuff was shown in the panel anyway) and I only saw episode 3 because my cousin wanted to do something on my birthday and we couldn't think of anything better to do than to go to a nearly-empty theater and riff on a shitty over-budget movie, and we enjoyed that at least.

On the other hand, I was the weird kid who was way into Doctor Who. Especially the oldest black-and-white episodes, because I loved having to imagine what color the aliens were.

Anyway, The Force Awakens is pretty okay. I'm not in love with it but it's a decent movie. Probably won't see it in the theater again, but I'll probably stream it when/if it ever makes it to HBO or Netflix or whatev (or torrent the blu-ray rip *cough*).
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby jb » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:36 pm

6! right! not 4! duh.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby fluffy » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:08 pm

Oh yeah, one thing that really bugged me was how Poe gets "killed" but you never see it (so obviously he's coming back) but when he does come back it's just this big ol' handwavey "Oh yeah man I survived, it was awesome!" without any explanation about how the fuck he ended up back with the rebels etc.

Also it was cute how C-3PO kept on referring to Leia as "Princess... I mean, General" but you'd think that a protocol droid would have learned after the first correction. Oh well, it was a fun moment.

Oh, and every time Kylo Ren had another temper tantrum I wanted someone to say "Dude, ANGER MANAGEMENT." And then we got that one scene where Kylo's in full-on meltdown mode and the stormtroopers are walking down the hall, see what's going on, and just stop and turn around. So obviously they knew someone who tried that... once. Having an angry overpowered manbaby as the main antagonist is going to be interesting.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby Lunkhead » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:26 pm

I felt like the temper tantrums really undermined Kylo Ren as a villain to me. I couldn't really take him seriously. I think they went a little too far with that. I mean, unless he's supposed to be like 20 years old, but I thought he was more supposed to be 30 or something.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby fluffy » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:14 pm

I can't take him seriously at all which is why I think he's so great as a villain. Like, there's this really ultra-bratty asshole who is so powerful that everyone's just afraid of him and he always gets his way. He was probably turned to the dark side because Holographic Voldemort was all "what, you say your uncle isn't letting you watch your favorite TV show? well here is how you can get your way, young padowan..."
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby fluffy » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:22 pm

LEAKED EPISODE 8 IMAGE OF KYLO REN

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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby Generic » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:46 pm

It took me forever to get to this, but I did finally see it a few weeks ago. I heard a lot of hype about how it was supposed to "recapture the magic of Star Wars," and how true fans were made believers again after seeing it. Viewed through that lens, I don't think it lives up to the hype. It was a fun big-budget sci-fi action film, but not much more than that, especially considering how many plot points are either borrowed whole-cloth from the previous movies, contrived coincidences, or both.

It had its moments, though. Four really great individual beats stood out for me:
1.) Rey flying the Millennium Falcon upside-down to give Finn a clear shot with his broken turret.
2.) That scene where Kylo Ren tries reading Rey's mind, but inadvertently teaches her how to use The Force, and she ends up reading him instead.
3.) Han's death. :(
4.) Rey Force-grabbing the lightsaber away from Kylo Ren. (Predictable, but highly satisfying.)

Things I took issue with, sometimes major issue:
1.) How did Han Solo just happen to find the Millennium Falcon the moment it leaves Jakku? Was he already hanging out in orbit around Jakku waiting for somebody to hotwire his ship?
2.) Like Sam, I'm quite dissatisfied with the provided in-universe explanation for why Finn defected. If this is the sort of thing that can happen to Storm Troopers, then it should be happening a lot more often. I could believe a whole battalion of defectors, and I could believe none at all, but for it to be just one, ever, strained my willing suspension of disbelief.
3.) Speaking of things that strain my suspension of disbelief - of all the gin joints in the all the galaxy, they just happen to take safe harbor in the one where Luke's lightsaber is? C'mon. This is even worse if it turns out that Rey is Luke's daughter, which the film heavy-handedly implies, but stops short of saying outright.
4.) There's a lot of strained dialogue in which characters specifically avoid referring to Han Solo as Kylo Ren's father or Kylo Ren as Han's son. This isn't like the Vader-is-Luke's-father twist in Empire Strikes Back, because Vader was the only living person who knew that particular secret. Here, everyone pertinent to the plot (except for Rey and Finn) already knows the secret, but they engage in some awkward talking-around-it dialogue for the sake of keeping it a surprise for the audience. I think this is disingenuous, and that Kylo Ren's parentage did not need to be a secret or a twist.
5.) The whole business with BB-8 being drawn to R2D2, as if he knows that he's the spiritual successor to that character... blatant fan-service, and just bad. Also, the plot that R2 is so "dejected" that Luke went away that he just shuts down for years? Also bad. And then he randomly powers back up when it's convenient for the plot? We're close to Jar-Jar levels of awfulness in this sector of the movie.
6.) Who the heck is Snoke? I found it really distracting that we don't know anything about how he learned to use the Force, where he gets his authority in the First Order, and the nature of his relationship to Kylo Ren. Episodes VIII and IX, but it's important for a movie, even if the writers and audience know that it's part of a series, to also work as a standalone. Missing this information and being told to come back and pay more money in two years to find it out, that's annoying.
7.) Starkiller Base. Ugh, Starkiller Base. Why have this giant thing whose entire purpose is to be "even scarier than the Death Star," and then barely show the effort it takes to destroy it? It's like the screenwriters just assume that, since we've already killed two Death Stars, we should know the drill by now. But we don't - or at least, I don't. The movie never really bothers to explain how the Resistance destroyed Starkiller, how they found out its weakness, how difficult it was for them, or even why it was important to do so (okay, they showed the base destroying five whole planets to establish the stakes, but that whole scene was a mess - which planets? Who's on them? Why should we care about these planets? How does this change the Star Wars universe, outside of providing some abstract motivation to our main characters?).

Finally, just so this post doesn't make me sound like a total crankypants, I'll happily join the chorus of people who really like Kylo Ren as a villain. I think he's really engaging and compelling. He's moody, arrogant, and petulant. He has an inferiority complex because of his grandfather, whom he idolizes for what seems like all the wrong reasons. And though all these qualities make him a somewhat ineffective leader, they also make him a very compelling character, and I really like Adam Driver's acting during the scenes when the mask comes off - especially Han's death scene, which I already pointed out as a highlight of the movie for me. If the new trilogy is building up to an epic confrontation between Rey and Kylo Ren, I'd be okay with that. (But c'mon... they don't have to be cousins for the story to work!)
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby fluffy » Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:48 pm

"The force works in mysterious ways."

(A total cop-out but it's probably the canon explanation for 1-3 and maybe 5. Because that's how Star Wars has always been.)

4 bugged me because the BIG REVEAL was well after pretty much everyone in the audience had probably figured it out based on the massive telegraphing. Or at least after I did.

Oh and I thought Han's death was really weak. It was telegraphed way in advance and everyone should have seen it coming - especially Han.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby Generic » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:00 pm

4 was spoiled for me way before I saw it. I'm honestly not sure whether I would have known it based on the movie's context clues. It's entirely possible that, had it not been told to me in advance, I might have considered the possibility but then dismissed it for being too obvious/hokey.

As for Han's death... I don't know, maybe I'm a mook or something, but I thought Driver gave the dialogue just enough ambiguity that I was really unsure whether he would go through with it*. I could tell that he was conflicted about whether to kill his father, and I had a feeling that the script was building to this moment, but Driver's performance made me think it could still have gone either way, right up to the last second.

*It occurs to me that another thing I liked about the scene was that Ben and Han were coming at the "problem" from different angles. Ben asks for help "doing the right thing," which Ben believes to be conquering his sentimental weakness and committing patricide, while Han tries to convince him do the actual right thing. They use the same language to talk about opposite sides of the conflict. It's very clever.
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Re: SPOILERS! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS!

Postby HeuristicsInc » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:52 am

#2. As I understand it from other books, the Empire has a lot of psychologists and ... what did they call them, loyalty officers, I think ...to keep the stormtroopers in line. If they detected something like that they would typically have them arrested, or kill them. Finn turned out to be more intelligent/resourceful than most and got away.
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