Top 5 Sitcoms of All-Time

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Post by erik »

Ahhhhh, I see. In terms of changing the face of TV, then yeah MTM > News Radio. It's definitely more important .

But "import" isn't everything. I mean, Married with Children notably changed the face of the television sitcom, in that before MwC, almost everyone on television was likeable and moral. The face of television is so radically different today. But that doesn't make it one of the 5 best sitcoms of all time. Hmmm, maybe it does.

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tonetripper wrote: 3) Malcolm in the Middle - No laugh track and still makes me laugh out loud. Great characters in the family and anyone with a family probably can chuckle pretty hard at the way those parents deal with their kids.
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yea got real close to puttin' that one on my list
Generic wrote:Newsradio is worth a mention, I think. Dave Foley, Phil Hartman, and Andy Dick all in one show. What more could you ask for?
oh i fuckin' loved that show... i hate they cancelled it bleh... do they ever show re-runs of that show anymore?
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Post by jb »

15-16 puzzle wrote:before MwC, almost everyone on television was likeable and moral. The face of television is so radically different today. But that doesn't make it one of the 5 best sitcoms of all time. Hmmm, maybe it does.
Maybe the stars of the show were all likeable and moral, but one of the most subtle, creepy, disturbing characters ever, in my opinion, was Eddie Haskell from "Leave it to Beaver". They never made a huge deal of that character, never came right out and said much about how he acted. It was all left up to the viewer to recognize. On an otherwise insipid show, I always thought that was bizarre and brilliant.
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15-16 puzzle wrote:Ahhhhh, I see. In terms of changing the face of TV, then yeah MTM > News Radio. It's definitely more important .

But "import" isn't everything. I mean, Married with Children notably changed the face of the television sitcom, in that before MwC, almost everyone on television was likeable and moral. The face of television is so radically different today. But that doesn't make it one of the 5 best sitcoms of all time. Hmmm, maybe it does.

[/gobundy]
i agree. married with children is more closer to top 5 than newsradio imho. it is a show that while on the surface may seem dated, but i am always guaranteed a laugh if i watch it, now matter how many times i've seen the episode. i'd call it one of the best of all time.
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Post by jack »

Anonymous wrote:
15-16 puzzle wrote:Ahhhhh, I see. In terms of changing the face of TV, then yeah MTM > News Radio. It's definitely more important .

But "import" isn't everything. I mean, Married with Children notably changed the face of the television sitcom, in that before MwC, almost everyone on television was likeable and moral. The face of television is so radically different today. But that doesn't make it one of the 5 best sitcoms of all time. Hmmm, maybe it does.

[/gobundy]
i agree. married with children is more closer to top 5 than newsradio imho. it is a show that while on the surface may seem dated, but i am always guaranteed a laugh if i watch it, now matter how many times i've seen the episode. i'd call it one of the best of all time.
that was me. and while eddie haskell was notoriously trouble, he always had that angelic face and demeanor when confronted by the parents cleaver. it was subtle and it worked.
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Post by Leaf »

Damn! Married with Children! Of Course... how could I forget that one? I watched that religiously in college.

It's interesting how some of you have very keen memories for tv shows, and even some kind of informed opinions on it, like your explicating Shakespeare or something...
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Post by jb »

Leaf wrote:Damn! Married with Children! Of Course... how could I forget that one? I watched that religiously in college.

It's interesting how some of you have very keen memories for tv shows, and even some kind of informed opinions on it, like your explicating Shakespeare or something...
Shakespeare was the TV of his day.
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Post by j$ »

Jim of Seattle wrote:You know, as I'm reading this thread I'm starting to see that there are two camps of sitcoms. There are all the sitcoms of the past 20 years or so, and then there's everything before it. About the early 80's, sitcoms settled into a very predictable formula for the most part. The same sets, same characters, same kinds of humor, same tempo...
Actually if this is true, then it's the sitcoms before 1980 on which the pattern was formed.

But I would disagree - it's just that the freedom of technological advance allowed things like The Simpsons (which is a situation comedy by almost every definition) but they can do a whole bunch of stuff which traditional comedies can not do.

Is there a huge difference between, say, The Brady Bunch and Friends? I like what i've seen of MTM but Rhona (it was Rhona, right?) is an archetype for every sassy, never-get-laid sidekick woman in sitcoms ever since. There's a direct link to the Nanny for instance.

Just because they came first doesn't mean they remain revolutionary.

And in answer to JB, Shakespeare was the big budget action slightly exostential (sp) movie of his day. The TV of Elizabethian (sp, again!) times was, of course, the Pox.
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Leaf wrote:It's interesting how some of you have very keen memories for tv shows, and even some kind of informed opinions on it, like your explicating Shakespeare or something...
When I was growing up, it was like a requirement to watch like at least 5 hours of TV a night. When I think back on it, it's disgusting how much TV I watched. I would start around the time I got home from school, around like 4:00, watching game shows as I did my homework until network TV came on, see all of prime time, and then watch the local news and Carson so I could get partway through Letterman, at which point I would fall asleep. On a "good night", I'd watch well over 8 hours of TV. And the worst part of it is that I was all gung-ho for awful shit like fucking "Manimal" and "The Misfits of Science".
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15-16 puzzle wrote:And the worst part of it is that I was all gung-ho for awful shit like fucking "Manimal" and "The Misfits of Science".
Aw come on, it wasn't awful when we were like, 12. It was wish-fulfillment. Those were the halcyon days. Long Live Automan! CHiPs! Daisy Duke!
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j$ wrote:
Jim of Seattle wrote:You know, as I'm reading this thread I'm starting to see that there are two camps of sitcoms. There are all the sitcoms of the past 20 years or so, and then there's everything before it. About the early 80's, sitcoms settled into a very predictable formula for the most part. The same sets, same characters, same kinds of humor, same tempo...
You're wrong
The 60's and 70's are famously a time when the culture's moral bearings were in flux. A time of great cultural changes, and blah blah you know all that. Shows like MTM or AITF or even something like Sanford & Son helped push forward those changes by pushing the envelopes of what was acceptable to talk about on TV. Sounds weird, but MTM was a big deal because she was unmarried and living alone, and dating different men, and implicitly having sex. "That Girl" was groundbreaking in the same way a few years earlier, though much tamer. MTM was also one of the first shows to depict sitcom characters at their place of work instead of in the home. With MTM there was much less disconnect between the real world and the world depicted on sitcoms. And that insistence on realism made it resonate better with sudiences and, incidentally, made it much funnier. "Sex and the City" is a show that had claims of breaking boundaries the same way, though in their case I'd say the motivation was more just giggly titilation than anything else.

When in an early MTM episode Lou Grant is interviewing Mary for the job and he asks "What religion are you?", and Mary nervously answered "Uh, Mr. Grant, I don't think it's legal for you to ask me a question like that in a job interview." and Lou says "So call a cop." That was a BIG DEAL back then. It's not scandalous now, but we have shows like MTM to thank for that. And what about the episode where Murray confessed he was in love with Mary. He's married with kids in the show. That was also a big deal. The show didn't try to moralize the topic, it just put it out there as fact. And man, that was a funny one, btw.

And if All in the Family were on today, they'd be talking about Bush and Kerry (by name, mind you) and having arguments about gay marriage and gun control and whatever the hot issues might be. Imagine seeing an episode of Just Shoot Me cover that. Now sitcoms occasionally drag "issues" onstage like talismans of credibility, but if you look closely, they're not really taking any chances.

Anyway, some shows do try to push things a bit. But shows like News Radio, Just Shoot Me, Friends, Frasier, That 70's Show, really are just following the Tried And True Product Selling Formula. They don't talk about things that scare people.
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Post by jb »

Jim of Seattle wrote:some shows do try to push things a bit. But shows like News Radio, Just Shoot Me, Friends, Frasier, That 70's Show, really are just following the Tried And True Product Selling Formula. They don't talk about things that scare people.
Be careful how far you go with that, because there *IS* a place for pure entertainment in the world. Not everything should be or even can be topical and envelope-pushing. Today it seems like, for network TV, the dramas have taken that role, somewhat, with ER and Law and Order and CSI etc all using topical issues for their plots. "Ripped from the Headlines". This week on Law and Order, a governer comes out of the closet. I'm not kidding.

But then remember that you've got South Park, The Daily Show, That's My Bush (poorly), the PJs (cancelled), The Simpsons (somewhat), all going after the topical, funny-but-intellectual angle.

It's easy to just dismiss the non-heady shows as frivolous and not worth discussing. But there is good craft in (most of) Frasier. It's funny, it's entertaining, and that's what it aims for. Seinfeld and Cheers weren't topical either, you know, and they're almost always in the top 10 of lists. Charlie Rose comes on at midnight.
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Jim of Seattle wrote:Now sitcoms occasionally drag "issues" onstage like talismans of credibility, but if you look closely, they're not really taking any chances.
I credit "Blossom" with killing the VSE because fricking too much kept happening to that girl. But really, that's fine and good because some people just want to make a sitcom that effectively and repetitively makes people laugh. Not every show has to be breaking down social mores in order to be great. It can just be really, really funny and well written and well acted.
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Yeah like Raven, cause that's so raven.
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Jim of Seattle wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:
I'm curious though - do Americans not know of, say, Fawlty Towers - or do you just find it not funny?
First off, as someone already said, British sitcoms are hard to find over here. Public stations have some of them, but no one watches those stations much. Fawlty Towers is probably the most well-known and well-loved of British sitcoms, but frankly there were so few of them made that for me it never really gathered enough momentum to be considered truly "great". Plus, watching it now I find that it repeats itself a lot, and relies to heavily on Cleese's barely contained fuming. It almost made my list though.
I really was genuinely surprised FT hadn't made any lists. Where I come from, it's accepted dogma that "Fawlty Towers is the perfect sitcom - the 12 episodes that were made were pure genius". I guessing that the Poms would feel the same about it.

Jim of Seattle wrote: So what if "All in the Family" was first a British series? Did the British series change the face of the culture and resonate with the country for almost a decade? Did the main character become a cultural icon? Carroll O'Connor didn't steal the British character, he adapted it to his own culture, as did Norman Lear with the entire show.
You're right. I haven't seen a lot of All in the Family but I do realise that Archie Bunker was more than just a copy of Alf Garnett (BTW, Alf did become a bit of a cultural icon - it's not unusual in Australia to still hear an ignorant racist be described as ...a bit like Alf Garnett....). I really only mentioned it to guage the imact of British TV in USA - not to be critical of AITF or to suggest it was inferior.
Jim of Seattle wrote: Notice I didn't compare one of your favorite shows to dog excrement. And I thought the Brits were all genteel and stuff...
Well you'll get no apologies here on that one - IMHO that Wonder Years was breathtakingly bad. (The Brits may be all genteel and stuff - but that's something Australians are rarely accused of :wink: )
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Post by Caravan Ray »

Jim of Seattle wrote:
j$ wrote:
Jim of Seattle wrote:You know, as I'm reading this thread I'm starting to see that there are two camps of sitcoms. There are all the sitcoms of the past 20 years or so, and then there's everything before it. About the early 80's, sitcoms settled into a very predictable formula for the most part. The same sets, same characters, same kinds of humor, same tempo...
You're wrong
The 60's and 70's are famously a time when the culture's moral bearings were in flux......
I miss the genuinely silly, and very funny American sitcoms of the 60's; Get Smart, F-Troop, Hogans Heroes, Beverly Hillbillies, Greenacres - the stuff before Happy Days jumped the shark, MASH lost Frank Burns and started becoming serious and MTM started tackling 'issues'.
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sherwood schwartz was genius.
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Caravan Ray wrote: I miss the genuinely silly, and very funny American sitcoms of the 60's; Get Smart, F-Troop, Hogans Heroes, Beverly Hillbillies, Greenacres - the stuff before Happy Days jumped the shark, MASH lost Frank Burns and started becoming serious and MTM started tackling 'issues'.
wooo i love beverly hillbillies... that should be on my list... hogans heroes was really good 2
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Jim, you never really effectively answered Erik's question, in my estimation. I mean, I'll accept that Mary Tyler Moore was a hugely important television show. I do not deny that it was groundbreaking. In fact, I'm not even saying it was bad. But it doesn't come anywhere near my top five. Why is it *better* than so many of the other ones we've mentioned?

Or, in a less imposing phrasation... Given a choice between watching one or the other, I'd personally choose Newsradio. Obviously, you prefer Mary Tyler Moore. Could you articulate it without bringing historical importance into it, or is it simple preference at that point?
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Post by jack »

i think you need to keep in mind that what's "best" for a 19 year old is probably not going to be what's best for a 40-something guy. we come from different generations. why even argue the point. it's stupid. it's all just opinions.
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Generic wrote:Jim, you never really effectively answered Erik's question, in my estimation. I mean, I'll accept that Mary Tyler Moore was a hugely important television show. I do not deny that it was groundbreaking. In fact, I'm not even saying it was bad. But it doesn't come anywhere near my top five. Why is it *better* than so many of the other ones we've mentioned?

Or, in a less imposing phrasation... Given a choice between watching one or the other, I'd personally choose Newsradio. Obviously, you prefer Mary Tyler Moore. Could you articulate it without bringing historical importance into it, or is it simple preference at that point?
As one who is old enough to remember MTM - I would rank it as being definately funnier than Friends but not as funny as Frasier. ie. it was better than average for the time but I don't think it came close to 'classic' status
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Post by Jim of Seattle »

JB, and others, I wasn't trying to say that the "important" shows were better. I was just pointing out that there are really two camps of great shows. In one camp, with the AITF, MTM, etc., they were great partly because they broke new ground and got us to laugh at new things, took risks and succeeded, etc., while the other was just very good at being funny within a very narrow formula. No judgement was meant, if one was perceived.

Jon, what I think made MTM great was its near perfect craft. The characters are all real people, and all funny. The stories resonated much more deeply, so the laughs were much deeper. The characters were funniest when their humanity showed through, even with someone like Ted Baxter. The characters in News Radio are pretty stock sitcom fare. The lead couple is particularly uninteresting, and Phil Hartman's character was mostly predictable. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed News Radio, but it never even remotely approached genius. Also, News Radio was good at an already defined formula, whereas MTM defined its own formula.
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