I for one welcome our new European overlords.

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:51 pm

Good article on the rise of the EU and the decline of the US.

It quotes a Salon article that's worth reading. (You can get the Salon day-pass cookie here.)[/url]

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:28 pm

Whereas I can sorta get into the article...it's line 'arguably' isn't grabbing me... Arguably, Kmart is better than Walmart.

and

<i>
"Freedom fries" is considered a weighty matter worthy of deliberation by the US Congress. Regulating who people can love is considered a matter of national security (a greater danger than terrorism, say the GOoPers!).
</i>

Things like that make me not want to bother with the rest of the article.

It's basically a writer's fluffing spin on how great the EU could be. There are very interesting parts of the articl I must say. However, in the end it's just a light shining through a soft glamour filter on the EU while contrasting the U.S.A. with sickening white flouresent tubes.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:43 pm

Hoblit wrote: It's basically a writer's fluffing spin on how great the EU could be. There are very interesting parts of the articl I must say. However, in the end it's just a light shining through a soft glamour filter on the EU while contrasting the U.S.A. with sickening white flouresent tubes.

I agree.

Don't look to the EU to be replacing USA as the world superpower. It will be China - probably within the next 20 years.

Kamakura · Post by **Kamakura** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:53 pm

China... There's a happy thought.
Though the EU can never succeed. Too many language and cultural barriers. Too much historic bad blood.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:37 pm

Kamakura wrote:China... There's a happy thought.

That wasn't meant to sound ominous - but it is inevitable. With existing growth the East Asian area will eventually dwarf the West.

What is worrying is that China may copy the West's current rate of consumption of resources. Australia and USA are currently the largest per capita consumers of fossil fuels on Earth - yet we won't adopt the Kyoto Protocol and aim to reduce consuption. Starting wars to secure oil reserves seems a bit silly at this late stage of the game. Time we started to learn to do without it.

True for the last 50 years especially, China's human rights report card has been less than good. Mao made Hitler look like a pussycat by comparison, and some of his mates are still there running the show. But they do probably have the oldest continuous civilization on the planet - so maybe they know something we don't.

Whatever happens, look to the Beijing Olympics in 2008 as being a major turning point in world history. It is then I feel the Chinese will really put their hands up and give the world a glimpse of what the future may be like. I don't know if it will be good or if it will be bad - but the Chinese will win the medal count.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:02 pm

I could totaly see China being a world power econimically, industrially, and even militarily.

I could also see them waring for more space.

j$ · Post by j$ » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:17 pm

If China has the biggest population in the world, then maybe we should just bow down and learn Chinese, cos surely they deserve to be the dominant force? That's democracy in its purest principle to me ...

However, I have a sneaking suspicion that government/power as we know it is in its 'wounded animal' phase anyway, and that pesky little boundry-smashing toy we call the internet may be the key. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but ...

(ok - rushes off to add 'people who equate optimism with stupidity' to his pet peeves list.)

J$

mico saudad · Post by **mico saudad** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:01 pm

Hoblit wrote:I could totaly see China being a world power econimically, industrially, and even militarily.

I could also see them waring for more space.

Says the Japanese guy: "Hey. We sleep in coffin shaped hotel rooms. Go somewhere else."
Says the Russian guy: "Take some of this ice-capped purgatory over here."
Says the Indian guy: "If you can fit anyone else in India I'll give you 4,496 rupees."

China looks downright spacious compared to many of their neighbors. It's about 2/3 less densely populated than India or Japan for example.

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:35 pm

abecedarian wrote:China looks downright spacious compared to many of their neighbors. It's about 2/3 less densely populated than India or Japan for example.

A lot of China is mountains and otherwise uninhabitable.

Also, I disagree with Hoblit. The only aggression China will show is towards Taiwan or Hong Kong, and both of those are not to be expected within my lifetime. That is, I don't expect aggression will happen within my lifetime. Then, you also think we're going to start a war with Iran, with which I also disagree.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:41 pm

mkilly wrote:
abecedarian wrote:China looks downright spacious compared to many of their neighbors. It's about 2/3 less densely populated than India or Japan for example.
A lot of China is mountains and otherwise uninhabitable.

Also, I disagree with Hoblit. The only aggression China will show is towards Taiwan or Hong Kong, and both of those are not to be expected within my lifetime. That is, I don't expect aggression will happen within my lifetime. Then, you also think we're going to start a war with Iran, with which I also disagree.

I never suggested that China would war in our lifetime...just that I could see it happening in the future.

Also, Iran is on the list pal... I'm NOT AS sure about Iran as I was about the administration going to war with IRAQ though. As soon as I heard the first IRAQ name drop I knew right away were we were going. Just as I knew dubya was going to win the presidency BOTH times.

Also, Iran is only a fair possibility, and they are building nukes and high fiving each other in celebration. If dubya gets it in his head and Ms. Rice as moderate* as she is...stays loyal to her man dubya... you never know.

*ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:39 pm

mkilly wrote:
abecedarian wrote:China looks downright spacious compared to many of their neighbors. It's about 2/3 less densely populated than India or Japan for example.
A lot of China is mountains and otherwise uninhabitable.

Also, I disagree with Hoblit. The only aggression China will show is towards Taiwan or Hong Kong, and both of those are not to be expected within my lifetime. That is, I don't expect aggression will happen within my lifetime. Then, you also think we're going to start a war with Iran, with which I also disagree.

China is already aggressive towards Taiwan. Whether it becomes outright war - who knows - but if it does it could happen any time.

Either way - I think the future Chinese Empire will differ from the British/American/Soviet Empires of the past 200 years in that it will be economic - not military based.

Today, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and elsewhere throughout the Asia/Pacific region you can clearly see the impact of historic Chinese migration, as ethnic Chinese populations dominate many commercial activities. They appear to be a people who like to get down to business and get things done. The messy business of politics and war is usually left up to hot-headed Westerners.

Isn't there a Songfighter in Shanghai? - maybe he can give us an opinion?

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:02 am

Caravan Ray wrote:Isn't there a Songfighter in Shanghai? - maybe he can give us an opinion?

Mo is, and he's a student there, in fact.

Sober · Post by **Sober** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:06 am

Caravan Ray wrote:Isn't there a Songfighter in Shanghai? - maybe he can give us an opinion?

A: Mo hasn't, to my knowledge, been heard from in over a month.

B: It would probably be unsafe for him to give us an opinion on the matter.

j$ · Post by j$ » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:04 am

the sober irishman wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:Isn't there a Songfighter in Shanghai? - maybe he can give us an opinion?
A: Mo hasn't, to my knowledge, been heard from in over a month.

B: It would probably be unsafe for him to give us an opinion on the matter.

A: you didn't look very hard, did you, sober? Mo's recent post here was 'Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:48 pm', and on somesongs the same day. He never posts that frequently anyway, which makes your

B: sound really rather smug & insulting*, especially coming from a man who only a month ago was going to leave the US if Bush got elected. Really.

*by which I mean using ill-researched facts to support a stereotypical attitude towards a culture/political perusasion alien to your own - not that i know any better, but i don't go round posting as if I did...

EDIT:or maybe I do? Hmmmmm ...