NH Smoking Ban

Go ahead, get it off your chest.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Post by Caravan Ray »

jimtyrrell wrote: Anyway, remember way back when they banned smoking in bars and restaurants in NH? Well, here's a report from the field. It's been kind of nice to not come home stinking of smoke. The Lucky Dog in Plymouth is a much nicer bar to hang out in, actually. The difference there seems to be the most noticeable to me so far. As for business, it hasn't really affected things too much, since it's an across-the-board ban. Meaning, it's not like smokers can choose to go to another bar instead. Everyone's just learning to deal with it.
Both your original fears and your subsequent observations were pretty much exactly the same as mine. We have had those laws for over a year now in Qld - and reaction is almost all positve. (Mind you - here in tropical/sub-tropical Queensland - going outside for a smoke isn't much of an issue. I don't how easy that is to do up there in the icy wastes of sub-polar NH?)
User avatar
bz£
Panama
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:50 am
Location: boston ma

Post by bz£ »

Caravan Ray wrote:(Mind you - here in tropical/sub-tropical Queensland - going outside for a smoke isn't much of an issue. I don't how easy that is to do up there in the icy wastes of sub-polar NH?)
It sucks, but it only lasts for a few minutes. Like your first intimate experience! And the heat is usually cranked up when you get back indoors, so I don't even bother to put a coat on, unless the weather is really extreme.
User avatar
Lunkhead
You're No Good
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:14 pm
Instruments: many
Recording Method: cubase/mac/tascam4x4
Submitting as: Berkeley Social Scene, Merisan, Tiny Robots
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Berkeley, CA
Contact:

Post by Lunkhead »

I like ice cream.
Me$$iah
Push Comes to Shove
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:34 pm
Instruments: I just bought a 12 string and a stratocaster with a whammy bar
Recording Method: Sonic-Core
Submitting as: infrequently as ever
Location: Son of God - Im like EVERYWHERE

Post by Me$$iah »

Caravan Ray wrote:
Me$$iah wrote:I think that government has no place in legislating on matters of personal choice. Thats it. It aint their job.
That is quite simply 100% incorect. From that point on your argument disappears.

Im not sure, but I think its that kind of attitude that has enabled a cunt like John Howard.
User avatar
Denyer
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1144
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:02 pm
Instruments: Dunlop KT-26
Submitting as: Ross Durand
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by Denyer »

What did John Howard ever do to you :(. Leave our PM alone meanie.
Niveous wrote:It's a song about your dick and there's just not enough material to satisfy.
User avatar
roymond
Beat It
Posts: 5188
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:42 pm
Instruments: Guitars, Bass, Vocals, Logic
Recording Method: Logic X, MacBookPro, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2
Submitting as: roymond, Dangerous Croutons, Intentionally Left Bank, Moody Vermin
Pronouns: he/him
Location: brooklyn
Contact:

Post by roymond »

Did someone mention ice cream?
roymond.com | songfights | covers
"Any more chromaticism and you'll have to change your last name to Wagner!" - Frankie Big Face
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Post by Caravan Ray »

Me$$iah wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:
Me$$iah wrote:I think that government has no place in legislating on matters of personal choice. Thats it. It aint their job.
That is quite simply 100% incorect. From that point on your argument disappears.

Im not sure, but I think its that kind of attitude that has enabled a cunt like John Howard.
The question here is what do you think the role of government is? I said you were 100% wrong - because as I see it "legislating on matters of personal choice" is the fundamental role of government. It is the reason government exists.

As a species we are a social animal - but individually we are hard-wired to be greedy and distrustful of others. To function as a society - there needs to be some sort of structure in place to discourages us from nicking other peoples stuff and starting fights. In modern secular society - that role is filled by government. Every law passed by every government is generally just a variation on the themes - "don't nick other people's stuff" and "don't start fights".

The smoking ban in question here has come about because it has been determined that hospitality workers shouldn't have to work in an environment that may damage their health. Impinging on their ability to make a living is effectively "nicking their stuff".

I don't agree that "that kind of attitude that has enabled a cunt like John Howard". John Howard is a cunt, but he is a popularist cunt. He has recognised the undercurrent of racism and greed in Australian society and fed it for his own benefit. He encourage fear to get votes. He encourages racism to get votes. He helps the USA murder Iraqis to get votes. He treats refugees like criminals to get votes. He encourages "personal choice" - because it is the personal choices of the greedy and bigotted that have kept him in power. John Howard is not trying to control society - he is only after power for his own petty little reasons. He is a nasty, little cunt to be sure - but he is not controlling society - he just uses the personal choices of the stupid for his own benefit.
User avatar
Denyer
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1144
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:02 pm
Instruments: Dunlop KT-26
Submitting as: Ross Durand
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by Denyer »

Caravan Ray wrote:he just uses the personal choices of the stupid for his own benefit.
You'll be voting for him then?
Niveous wrote:It's a song about your dick and there's just not enough material to satisfy.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Post by Caravan Ray »

Denyer wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:he just uses the personal choices of the stupid for his own benefit.
You'll be voting for him then?
Tsk...tsk... Denyer - you can do better than that.
User avatar
bz£
Panama
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:50 am
Location: boston ma

Post by bz£ »

Caravan Ray wrote:Every law passed by every government is generally just a variation on the themes - "don't nick other people's stuff" and "don't start fights".
I think you're oversimplifying a bit. Public health is just something else your government takes care of. It doesn't have to be a subset of "thou shalt not steal." There's a lot of ground to cover there-- funding medical research, disease control, anti-smoking propaganda, free medication for people who think all governments are totalitarian, etc.

There's infrastructure, too. You guys have paved roads in Australia yet? That's usually a government responsibility. Public parks, roads, bridges and generally everything that nobody "owns" have to be built and maintained. You really have to stretch to call this stuff "no-stealing" or "no-fighting-starting."

Economics? I'm no expert here, but it seems to me that somebody's gotta print (and back!) money, right? The Euro shows that this doesn't necessarily have to be at the national level, but the difference between "government" and "a bunch of governments working together" is really just a question of scale. At any rate, governments have a lot of work on their hands to keep economies reasonably stable, and while some of it may fall under "no stealin'" I doubt it all does.

& cetera.

Oh, and for what little it's worth, I thought "You'll be voting for him then?" was pretty damn funny.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Post by Caravan Ray »

bzl wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:Every law passed by every government is generally just a variation on the themes - "don't nick other people's stuff" and "don't start fights".
I think you're oversimplifying a bit.
:lol: You think?!?

The point was that 'legislating on matters of personal choice' is exactly what a government does. I don't understand why Messiah thinks it isn't. You can't nick other people's stuff or hurt other people just because you choose to. The government has made laws against it. (If he was referring to a situation where a government legislates against a personal choice which does not hurt someone else or make someone else worse off - then of course, he is correct. But the matter in question is not one of those situations)

BTW - it isn't such a strecth to fit the provision of infrastucture and public health functions into the "don't steal or hurt" model. It is all about the equitable management of resouces for the benefit of the population as a whole. But that is the subject of another future thread...

..and I still think Denyer's joke was pissweak
User avatar
erik
Jump
Posts: 2341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:06 am
Submitting as: 15-16 puzzle
Location: Austin
Contact:

Post by erik »

Caravan Ray wrote:The point was that 'legislating on matters of personal choice' is exactly what a government does. I don't understand why Messiah thinks it isn't.
He doesn't think that government's *don't* do that, he thinks they *shouldn't*.
Jefff
Push Comes to Shove
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:23 pm
Submitting as: PPV
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Denver, CO, US
Contact:

Post by Jefff »

But I think Ray's saying that that's what a government does by definition. In other words, legislating on matters of personal choice is "their job".
User avatar
erik
Jump
Posts: 2341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:06 am
Submitting as: 15-16 puzzle
Location: Austin
Contact:

Post by erik »

What definition is this?
Jefff
Push Comes to Shove
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:23 pm
Submitting as: PPV
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Denver, CO, US
Contact:

Post by Jefff »

Caravan Ray's definition of government.
Hoblit
Hot for Teacher
Posts: 3669
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:48 pm
Pronouns: Dude or GURRRLLLL!
Location: Charlotte, NC ... A big city on its first day at the new job.
Contact:

Post by Hoblit »

While Messiah is a bit extreme in viewpoint...I do share some of his observations as illustrated in my original reply to him.

We might be pessimistic about our government and we might even be guilty of being a little paranoid about it <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articl ... dwellings/" target="resource window">but we're on the right track.</a>
<font size="1"><i> Obviously this isn't an outright ban or anything so we can all relax, it's merely the first step towards that.</i>

<a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... to=newsnow&" target="resource window">Oh, and in London</a>

And in the name of security <a href="http://www.local6.com/news/14224055/detail.html" target="resource window">"Where there's drugs, there's going to be guns,"</a> - which seems obvious until you read that in context.
<font size="1"><i>Gives literal meaning to the "War on Drugs" right here on our American streets.</i>
Last edited by Hoblit on Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Post by Caravan Ray »

erik wrote:What definition is this?
A 'definition' is the meaning of a word. You should look it up if you don't understand.

Like Government: the authoritative direction and restraint exercised over the actions of people in communities, societies and states..... (Macquarie Dictionary, 1999)
User avatar
erik
Jump
Posts: 2341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:06 am
Submitting as: 15-16 puzzle
Location: Austin
Contact:

Post by erik »

Caravan Ray wrote:
erik wrote:What definition is this?
A 'definition' is the meaning of a word. You should look it up if you don't understand.

Like Government: the authoritative direction and restraint exercised over the actions of people in communities, societies and states..... (Macquarie Dictionary, 1999)
That definition fails to include the part where governments must legislate on matters of personal choice. Sorry, you lose. Keep trying though.
User avatar
Lunkhead
You're No Good
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:14 pm
Instruments: many
Recording Method: cubase/mac/tascam4x4
Submitting as: Berkeley Social Scene, Merisan, Tiny Robots
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Berkeley, CA
Contact:

Post by Lunkhead »

Caravan Ray wrote:the actions of people
==
erik wrote:matters of personal choice
?
Jefff
Push Comes to Shove
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:23 pm
Submitting as: PPV
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Denver, CO, US
Contact:

Post by Jefff »

I think the real definitional problem here is about matters of personal choice, not governments.
User avatar
erik
Jump
Posts: 2341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:06 am
Submitting as: 15-16 puzzle
Location: Austin
Contact:

Post by erik »

This is true.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Post by Caravan Ray »

erik wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:
erik wrote:What definition is this?
A 'definition' is the meaning of a word. You should look it up if you don't understand.

Like Government: the authoritative direction and restraint exercised over the actions of people in communities, societies and states..... (Macquarie Dictionary, 1999)
That definition fails to include the part where governments must legislate on matters of personal choice. Sorry, you lose. Keep trying though.
Government: the authoritative direction and restraint exercised over the actions of people

What is your definition of "lose"?
Don't bother keeping trying - you're not up to it.
Post Reply