Both your original fears and your subsequent observations were pretty much exactly the same as mine. We have had those laws for over a year now in Qld - and reaction is almost all positve. (Mind you - here in tropical/sub-tropical Queensland - going outside for a smoke isn't much of an issue. I don't how easy that is to do up there in the icy wastes of sub-polar NH?)jimtyrrell wrote: Anyway, remember way back when they banned smoking in bars and restaurants in NH? Well, here's a report from the field. It's been kind of nice to not come home stinking of smoke. The Lucky Dog in Plymouth is a much nicer bar to hang out in, actually. The difference there seems to be the most noticeable to me so far. As for business, it hasn't really affected things too much, since it's an across-the-board ban. Meaning, it's not like smokers can choose to go to another bar instead. Everyone's just learning to deal with it.
NH Smoking Ban
- Caravan Ray
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It sucks, but it only lasts for a few minutes. Like your first intimate experience! And the heat is usually cranked up when you get back indoors, so I don't even bother to put a coat on, unless the weather is really extreme.Caravan Ray wrote:(Mind you - here in tropical/sub-tropical Queensland - going outside for a smoke isn't much of an issue. I don't how easy that is to do up there in the icy wastes of sub-polar NH?)
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Caravan Ray wrote:That is quite simply 100% incorect. From that point on your argument disappears.Me$$iah wrote:I think that government has no place in legislating on matters of personal choice. Thats it. It aint their job.
Im not sure, but I think its that kind of attitude that has enabled a cunt like John Howard.
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Did someone mention ice cream?
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"Any more chromaticism and you'll have to change your last name to Wagner!" - Frankie Big Face
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The question here is what do you think the role of government is? I said you were 100% wrong - because as I see it "legislating on matters of personal choice" is the fundamental role of government. It is the reason government exists.Me$$iah wrote:Caravan Ray wrote:That is quite simply 100% incorect. From that point on your argument disappears.Me$$iah wrote:I think that government has no place in legislating on matters of personal choice. Thats it. It aint their job.
Im not sure, but I think its that kind of attitude that has enabled a cunt like John Howard.
As a species we are a social animal - but individually we are hard-wired to be greedy and distrustful of others. To function as a society - there needs to be some sort of structure in place to discourages us from nicking other peoples stuff and starting fights. In modern secular society - that role is filled by government. Every law passed by every government is generally just a variation on the themes - "don't nick other people's stuff" and "don't start fights".
The smoking ban in question here has come about because it has been determined that hospitality workers shouldn't have to work in an environment that may damage their health. Impinging on their ability to make a living is effectively "nicking their stuff".
I don't agree that "that kind of attitude that has enabled a cunt like John Howard". John Howard is a cunt, but he is a popularist cunt. He has recognised the undercurrent of racism and greed in Australian society and fed it for his own benefit. He encourage fear to get votes. He encourages racism to get votes. He helps the USA murder Iraqis to get votes. He treats refugees like criminals to get votes. He encourages "personal choice" - because it is the personal choices of the greedy and bigotted that have kept him in power. John Howard is not trying to control society - he is only after power for his own petty little reasons. He is a nasty, little cunt to be sure - but he is not controlling society - he just uses the personal choices of the stupid for his own benefit.
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I think you're oversimplifying a bit. Public health is just something else your government takes care of. It doesn't have to be a subset of "thou shalt not steal." There's a lot of ground to cover there-- funding medical research, disease control, anti-smoking propaganda, free medication for people who think all governments are totalitarian, etc.Caravan Ray wrote:Every law passed by every government is generally just a variation on the themes - "don't nick other people's stuff" and "don't start fights".
There's infrastructure, too. You guys have paved roads in Australia yet? That's usually a government responsibility. Public parks, roads, bridges and generally everything that nobody "owns" have to be built and maintained. You really have to stretch to call this stuff "no-stealing" or "no-fighting-starting."
Economics? I'm no expert here, but it seems to me that somebody's gotta print (and back!) money, right? The Euro shows that this doesn't necessarily have to be at the national level, but the difference between "government" and "a bunch of governments working together" is really just a question of scale. At any rate, governments have a lot of work on their hands to keep economies reasonably stable, and while some of it may fall under "no stealin'" I doubt it all does.
& cetera.
Oh, and for what little it's worth, I thought "You'll be voting for him then?" was pretty damn funny.
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You think?!?bzl wrote:I think you're oversimplifying a bit.Caravan Ray wrote:Every law passed by every government is generally just a variation on the themes - "don't nick other people's stuff" and "don't start fights".
The point was that 'legislating on matters of personal choice' is exactly what a government does. I don't understand why Messiah thinks it isn't. You can't nick other people's stuff or hurt other people just because you choose to. The government has made laws against it. (If he was referring to a situation where a government legislates against a personal choice which does not hurt someone else or make someone else worse off - then of course, he is correct. But the matter in question is not one of those situations)
BTW - it isn't such a strecth to fit the provision of infrastucture and public health functions into the "don't steal or hurt" model. It is all about the equitable management of resouces for the benefit of the population as a whole. But that is the subject of another future thread...
..and I still think Denyer's joke was pissweak
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While Messiah is a bit extreme in viewpoint...I do share some of his observations as illustrated in my original reply to him.
We might be pessimistic about our government and we might even be guilty of being a little paranoid about it <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articl ... dwellings/" target="resource window">but we're on the right track.</a>
<font size="1"><i> Obviously this isn't an outright ban or anything so we can all relax, it's merely the first step towards that.</i>
<a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... to=newsnow&" target="resource window">Oh, and in London</a>
And in the name of security <a href="http://www.local6.com/news/14224055/detail.html" target="resource window">"Where there's drugs, there's going to be guns,"</a> - which seems obvious until you read that in context.
<font size="1"><i>Gives literal meaning to the "War on Drugs" right here on our American streets.</i>
We might be pessimistic about our government and we might even be guilty of being a little paranoid about it <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articl ... dwellings/" target="resource window">but we're on the right track.</a>
<font size="1"><i> Obviously this isn't an outright ban or anything so we can all relax, it's merely the first step towards that.</i>
<a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... to=newsnow&" target="resource window">Oh, and in London</a>
And in the name of security <a href="http://www.local6.com/news/14224055/detail.html" target="resource window">"Where there's drugs, there's going to be guns,"</a> - which seems obvious until you read that in context.
<font size="1"><i>Gives literal meaning to the "War on Drugs" right here on our American streets.</i>
Last edited by Hoblit on Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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That definition fails to include the part where governments must legislate on matters of personal choice. Sorry, you lose. Keep trying though.Caravan Ray wrote:A 'definition' is the meaning of a word. You should look it up if you don't understand.erik wrote:What definition is this?
Like Government: the authoritative direction and restraint exercised over the actions of people in communities, societies and states..... (Macquarie Dictionary, 1999)
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Government: the authoritative direction and restraint exercised over the actions of peopleerik wrote:That definition fails to include the part where governments must legislate on matters of personal choice. Sorry, you lose. Keep trying though.Caravan Ray wrote:A 'definition' is the meaning of a word. You should look it up if you don't understand.erik wrote:What definition is this?
Like Government: the authoritative direction and restraint exercised over the actions of people in communities, societies and states..... (Macquarie Dictionary, 1999)
What is your definition of "lose"?
Don't bother keeping trying - you're not up to it.