You are on your own now USA

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Hoblit
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Re:

Postby Hoblit » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:59 am

Hoblit wrote:Too much at stake. I'm convinced our government will keep pouring resources into the region in order to keep resources pouring out of the region and into ours.

It may be futile, but I think that has to be the plan. Remembering that not only does oil fuel the American way of living, it also fuels the military itself. I think it's an all out effort to win supremacy for oil purchase/control. If we can't TAKE it, we at least need to be able to bully them into making us a priority in sale.

I do not support this effort. Bring the boys back home and lets figure out another way. And for the love of god U.S. Government, stop lying about it and just tell us. Its pretty thinly veiled at this point anyways. You might as well put up the numbers and explain your actions based on math. It would be better than all the deception. The math at least makes sense.


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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Paco Del Stinko » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:35 am

Swell. McCain was still wrong about the 100 years presence though: neither the oil nor the U.S. will last that long. Go ask the Romans.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby ujnhunter » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:04 am

I'm just waiting for the day that I get nuked while sitting in my bedroom recording music...
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Generic » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:38 pm

Who said 100 years? Of course, I'm of the opinion that even 100 days is too long, but 100 years? Seriously? When you get a generation of children on both sides of war who reach maturity without ever knowing in their lifetimes a time without the U.S. presence in Iraq (i.e. 18-25 years), it'll already be too late. If we ever get to 100, it'll just co-dependence.

War should never be the status quo.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Paco Del Stinko » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:58 pm

Generic wrote:War should never be the status quo.
Agreed. It was McCain who let the comment slip a few months back, that we'd be in Iraq for the next 100 years, although it was probably blown out of proportion. He more than likely was thinking about how the U.S. has been in Japan and Europe for 60+ years. Still, it's time to go, as we're destroying both their country and ours.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby jimtyrrell » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:57 am

John Mccain on 45:
100 years
b/w Bomb Iran
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Reist » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:50 pm

Bill Nye the science guy told me that cows are responsible for 20 percent of global warming. So shouldn't we just stop eating meat and kill all the cows?

Just thought I'd ask.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Generic » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:58 pm

Not a bad point. How are you going to get 300,000,000 Americans to go along with it?
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Billy's Little Trip » Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:03 pm

Generic wrote:Not a bad point. How are you going to get 300,000,000 Americans to go along with it?

Maybe some delicious recipes with Shmeat?
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Reist » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:27 pm

Generic wrote:Not a bad point. How are you going to get 300,000,000 Americans to go along with it?

Haha, I wasn't serious. Cattle ranching is huge in Alberta. But really, I'm just curious why is everyone complaining about vehicle emissions when (so I've heard) - cattle put off more greenhouse gases than all the vehicles on earth?

and BLT - I'd laugh, but the video doesn't play in Canada. Screw the internet. :roll:
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Generic » Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:04 pm

Reist, I actually believe that you were more right than you know. Vehicle emissions and cattle... er, emissions, are both symptoms of 1st-World excess. Most Americans at this point have grown up with the idea that meat is an important part of every full meal. Meat at every meal means there's a lot of pigs, chickens, and more importantly cows, taking up a lot of space (but, sadly, not as much space as they need) and creating a lot of waste.

Any serious greenhouse-gas-reducing plan should take that into account.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Caravan Ray » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:22 pm

Reïst wrote:Bill Nye the science guy told me that cows are responsible for 20 percent of global warming. So shouldn't we just stop eating meat and kill all the cows?

Just thought I'd ask.

I don't know who "Bill Nye the science guy" is - but I would guess either he is not a very good "science guy", or perhaps you are misquoting him. Whichever is the case, the statement "cows are responsible for 20 percent of global warming" is just silly. I suspect that your science guy is probably trying to tell you that after electricity generation, agriculture is the biggest source of anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions. This is perfectly true, and something that is often overlooked. However, it is not in any way correct to say "cows are responsible for 20 percent of global warming".

Perhaps you heard that agriculture and land clearing is responsible for some 20% of greenhouse emissions from anthropogenic sources. That is probably about right. And of that, methane emissions from livestock form a not insignificant proportion.

Or perhaps you heard that methane makes up about 20% of all anthropogenic greenhouse emissions. That is also probably about right. And of that, methane emissions from livestock, again form a not insignificant proportion of methane emissions from human activities.

But essentially - yes, you are right. We should reduce the amount of meat we eat. Land clearing, use of fossil fuels in agriculture, manufacture and use of fertilisers and methane generated by ruminants all contribute significantly to anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions.

And ideally yes - cows should be gotten rid of, and instead eat the local native or feral herbivores. We have roos and camels and buffalo here. Can't you lot eat moose or something? Or better still, perhaps your government could set a bag limit to allow you to catch and eat any Americans that stray over the border. That would be a sensible policy for a better tomorrow.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Caravan Ray » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:49 pm

Reïst wrote:But really, I'm just curious why is everyone complaining about vehicle emissions when (so I've heard) - cattle put off more greenhouse gases than all the vehicles on earth?

Everyone is complaining about vehicle emissions because vehicle emissions are putting into the atmosphere carbon that has been locked up under the ground for several million years.

The methane emissions from livestock simply contain the same carbon atoms that have been cycling in and out of the atmosphere for millions of years as part of the carbon cycle. There is a big difference.

Yes - there has been a net increase in the production of methane from the increase in demand for livestock in the western world, and this is significant with respect to climate change. But trying to imply that the production of methane by cattle somehow negates the need to urgently reduce fossil fuel use is just a bit silly I'm afraid.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Caravan Ray » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:59 pm

Generic wrote:War should never be the status quo.

Some 500 years ago, an Italian gentleman disagreed with you:

War should be the only study of a prince. He should consider peace only as a breathing-time, which gives him leisure to contrive, and furnishes as ability to execute, military plans.

- Machiavelli
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Eric Y. » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:25 am

Caravan Ray wrote:cows should be gotten rid of, and instead eat the local native or feral herbivores. We have [...] buffalo here.

We've already done that, sadly. Buffalo (meaning American Bison) have been practically extinct in the wild for quite some time around here. (As a side note, there is a small group of them living on a Game Preserve near where I grew up -- in fact, they were visible from many windows of the high school I went to, at least in the wintertime).

I think you have a good point, though -- we've adopted the wrong solution to our problem. When there is not enough native game species to support the human population, we decide to increase the population of domestic livestock, rather than limiting the number of humans to what is naturally feasible.

Caravan Ray wrote:perhaps your government could set a bag limit to allow you to catch and eat any Americans that stray over the border.

I think that would violate several health regulations in regards to fat and cholesterol content, so probably could not be sanctioned by the government.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby PlainSongs » Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:16 am

Caravan Ray wrote:vehicle emissions are putting into the atmosphere carbon that has been locked up under the ground for several million years.
The methane emissions from livestock simply contain the same carbon atoms that have been cycling in and out of the atmosphere for millions of years as part of the carbon cycle. There is a big difference.

Good point...

There also seems to be quite a difference in the duration and intensity of the effect of CO2 and methane (if you trust Wikipedia): "Methane has a large effect for a brief period (a net lifetime of 8.4 years in the atmosphere), whereas carbon dioxide has a small effect for a long period (over 100 years)."

Caravan Ray wrote:Pull my finger!

That's replacing methane by CO2 really.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Lunkhead » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:38 am

This guy's book is an interesting read, so far:

"Without Hot Air" by David McKay

Web site:
http://www.withouthotair.com/

Link to book as PDF:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sust ... ex/cft.pdf

Also, can the USA at least get a few points for having a president actually talk about a nuclear weapon free world? Even if it's just talk, it's not something I thought I'd hear a president even say.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Caravan Ray » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:47 pm

Lunkhead wrote:
Also, can the USA at least get a few points for having a president actually talk about a nuclear weapon free world? Even if it's just talk, it's not something I thought I'd hear a president even say.

Yes - your bloke seems to be going OK so far. Good on him.

Sadly, the optimism I seemed to have when I started this post over our new bloke is quickly fading - our Labor govt is currently trying to flog an emissions trading scheme that is a complete dog's breakfast (though to his credit, KRudd has been jumping on the no nukes bandwagon as well - good on him too)
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Caravan Ray » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:50 pm

PlainSongs wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:Pull my finger!

That's replacing methane by CO2 really.

Its cyber-methane
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby PlainSongs » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:12 am

Lunkhead wrote:This guy's book is an interesting read, so far:
http://www.withouthotair.com/

Thanks for that. I've only read the 10 page synopsis and the bit about electrical gadgets (everybody turn off your computers - bye bye home recording), but it reads well and makes one think. The map of Britain covered in renewable energy facilities sure gives pause. The book itself seems to be full of interesting stuff too:

"Because the temperature of the ground, a few metres down, stays slug-
gishly close to 11 ◦C, whether it’s summer or winter, the ground is theoret-
ically a better place for a heat pump to grab its heat than the air, which in
midwinter may be 10 or 15 ◦C colder than the ground.
"

The ground is hot! Who knew? Next time you're freezing your ass off, dig a burrow!

Have you found any sings of over-advocacy? It's not because it looks good we should believe his every word...

This is an interesting somewhat related easy lecture on exponential growth and fossil fuel (less about alternatives). Again, I wonder if he's overstating his point. Or not.
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Re: You are on your own now USA

Postby Lunkhead » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:36 am

I haven't finished it yet, but I feel like that author's approach does a good job of assuaging my own inclinations towards labeliing him as biased. He doesn't seem to be trying to slip past any outrageous statements, at least not without evidence to back them up. He seems pretty up front about the inaccuracy of his "back of the napkin" approach and about what his goals are. It's also interesting in that he makes it seem like he personally learned some interesting new things while doing research for the book, which makes things seem more genuine to me, also. I think the best point he makes is about how easy we've made it to increase energy consumption, and how hard it's going to be to ramp up renewable energy production to the levels of his very generous estimates. I think his focus on just Britain is interesting in some ways, as it makes me think about how every country is going to have a different situation and there will likely still be a lot of energy interdependency between countries due to the distribution of renewable resources around the globe. I'd be really curious to see a similar analysis focused on the US since we're the worst offenders in terms of consumption and because of our possible renewable energy sources.

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