A question for Hoblit

[Sober]

Here's a double-quote from January of this year:

Guys.

Clinton is not going to get the nomination. Edwards (who won't win, regardless) will quit if he doesn't finish a very strong second today (which he won't). Obama will be the Democratic candidate

This remains to be seen, and I do hope you are wrong. I think that no matter how many leaps and bounds this country has made in the area of Civil Rights, women's suffrage is still way out ahead. I think we'll see a white female president before we see a black male. On a personal level it doesn't matter to me, I'll vote for either one, but on the national level, I think Hillary has a better chance. (I also believe she's the better choice, but that has no bearing on this conversation)

Well, dang.

What changed, Hoblit? What issues that you agreed with Clinton on have changed so much that you hate Obama? Hillary and Barack line up together more than McCain and Bush, for Christ's sake. Bob Barr, who is diametrically opposed to every position held by Clinton and Obama, is really your choice? I could understand Nader or Paul, but Barr? This isn't about being the cool, hip indy kid who likes obscure bands, this is the future of the country.

The bailout. The only people who voted against it were people who were in tough reelection races. No one was excited about it, no one is happy about it. The overly-libertarian market practices of the last ~16 years led to this juncture, and an overly-populist measure was required to solve it. It's a hugely imperfect measure, but it has a reasonable chance of long-term success. Inaction (the true libertarian approach) would have been disastrous. Hopefully the markets will recover enough over the coming years to allow a more well-balanced approach.

And this shit with Biden. You keep quoting this one issue, as if he's based his entire political career on gittin' in yer computer. He's the 6th longest-serving senator, and you're crying about one vote? You are actively cherry-picking the records of these candidates because you want to rationalize a reason to vote against them. I dislike Obama's stances on immigration, his caving on drilling, and quite a few other things, but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

So I'm going to ask you directly, Hillary supporter: Since the 8th of January, when you said that you'd vote for either candidate, what issues or circumstances have changed, that you would constantly attack the ticket that most closely represents the ideals and policies put forward by your original choice?

[Märk]

Barrack Obama? I thought that was Tiger Woods! Whoa!

[Hoblit]

One, you were right and I was wrong.

Also, if I was voting to be hip or indy I'd vote for Ralph Nader.

My vote is going towards a candidate that I don't fully support, true. But I believe if this country wants real change then we need actually do something different.

I AM nit picky about Joe Biden. I have never liked him and I think his ignorance on this one subject illustrates how easily he could be steered in other instances. That's weak I know but it's still true.

I'm not a fan of Obama and I did say I would vote for him either way. What's changed?

He pushed for the bail out. That's the proverbial straw. Change? Really? He just illustrated what I suspected all along. He himself is more of the same. How in the heck is he going to sell us this magical health care plan after we just ok'd 700 + BILLION of our tax dollars toward corporate relief?

[Sober]

Not good enough, you were arguing against Obama long before the bailout, long before the financial crash. Also, Clinton voted for it.

I feel the libertarian ticket makes no sense, especially this election and with Barr on the top of the ticket:

1. Overly free market practices were a huge factor in creating this financial mess. A truly free capitalist market does not work in the US because the scale is so large and business privacy is protected (i.e. a true libertarian society wouldn't have passed the Meat Inspection Act). I believe government regulation should have an even-handed approach, regulating to protect consumers and hopefully prevent disasters like the one we're in. This is why the libertarian ticket has dropped off in polls so drastically - it's hard to float a new ticket when your platform is based on the fiscal policies that put us in this crisis.

2. Barr's social views are ridiculously conservative. He spent his entire congressional career oppressing gays, expanding the war on drugs, and restricting abortion rights. He authored the Defense of Marriage act. He lines up closely with Sarah Palin, for Christ's sake. Let's compare their plots:



Which one is your "real change candidate" and which one is a psychotic right wing nutcase?

The only thing Joe Biden ever did with respect to media security was cosponsor a couple of bills along with a few other senators, including Lindsey Graham. The bills covered silly things like setting rate standards for copyright licenses and preventing recording of satellite streams (wtf, who cares?).

There was, however, a bill that he cosponsored which tried to make it easier for the MPAA and RIAA to prosecute consumers. Man, I really understand your point of view on this issue, I probably have $10k+ worth of unpaid music, movies, and software. I do, however, realize that I am stealing. There's no way around it. If I ever get caught, I'm screwed, as I should be. If you feel this issue is important enough, keep downloading.

By the way, none of these bills ever went past committee, and the big bad bill never even went there. I imagine if Biden really cared about this issue, he'd have at least gotten it through the commerce committee, if not onto the floor.

Basically, you're blowing up a non-vote non-issue to rationalize voting against a guy you probably line up with 75% or better with on the issues, and are instead voting for a guy you probably line up with 10% or less. Oh, and what's Barr's technology record?

No issue stance yet recorded by OnTheIssues.org.

Do you want to hear my real argument for change? What I think is the real possibility Obama brings to the table?

Obama stopped taking lobbyist money many months ago. No one in his organization is allowed to take it, and he's pushed for the DNC not to take any, either. After elected, he could put even more pressure on the DNC to not take any lobbyist or corporate money, and to live on private donations alone. Assuming he's a popular president, once out of office he could have a lot of influence in keeping the DNC money clean. A promising democrat has a tough race in Louisiana, but not enough money? Obama shows up and campaigns for a few months. This whole scenario is about eliminating lobbyist money, and therefore influence.

Obviously, that's a romantic picture I'm painting, but the only possible route for that kind of shift is a candidate who came about via grass-roots, totally privately funded campaigning (a libertarian-sounding style of campaigning, yes?). Obama's run is historic in that regard, and his decision to eliminate lobbyist influence is more telling of his judgment and intentions than any single vote cast in the senate.

[Hoblit]

You're not my boss, you can't call me out on a question and then tell me my answer is not good enough. That's plain rude.

I never wanted to create a brand new argument. I simply accommodated you by answering your question.

All you have proven to me is that you have done your homework. All you have accomplished is discouraging me from voting at all.

You're also accusing me of not voting for Obama/Biden out of pure spite. That's not the case. You also assume that by voting for Bob Barr that I think he has a chance to win. Lets pretend he could. I would probably vote Democrat next time around like I usually do. I voted for Gore and I voted for Kerry and I would have voted for Obama up until recently. I don't have to like Obama to vote for him. I personally think he is a way better choice than McCain by far. I've decided to do something else with my vote this time around. I'm sorry that you can't appreciate that but all I ask is that you respect my choice.

I have no interest in arguing with you because 1) You're not going to change my mind, in fact you're passion for Obama along with your strong arming are discouraging me even more. 2) I'm not going to change YOUR mind and I have no desire to. I don't even HAVE to. I firmly believe Obama will be our next president.

Now, if you'll kindly leave me alone...

[Sober]

How am I being rude or strong-arm? I'm using factual evidence to illustrate the cognitive dissonance of your current and past positions.

Listen - I think that, if a person has a fundamental social and economic policy disagreement with Obama, then they should absolutely vote their conscience. If, however, Obama represents almost exactly a person's primary choice for president, and continues to represent the values held by that candidate, I am very curious as to why that person would then turn around and vote for someone who is a polar opposite.

I am not accusing you of spite, or racism, or anything, and I certainly want you to vote. I'm really not even trying to change your mind. I'm genuinely curious as to the root problem that you have with the democratic ticket. My rebuttals are simply to try and clear away the 'smokescreen' objections and get to the real issue, whatever it may be. I envision a possible future in politics for myself (probably in the back-end of things), and I'd like to know as much as possible about how different people perceive politics and make their decisions.

During the primaries, it seemed your only hesitation about Obama was that you thought (fairly) that he couldn't win a general election at this point in time. Our country is about to show its stripes by electing a black man with a funny name. He's run a respectable, efficient, well-organized grass-roots campaign, demonstrating leadership qualities that I think we can agree is needed for the white house.

The point is, if you had been decrying Hillary's clearly populist policies for months while supporting her, we wouldn't be having this conversation. If Clinton had won the primary, would you vote against her for supporting the bailout?

Unfortunately, 3rd parties have little chance for the foreseeable future, but I think it's perfectly acceptable for people to vote 3rd party if they agree with the platform, which is why I implied that I'd be encouraging you if you were supporting someone like Nader, who represents Clinton-esque values run through a tubescreamer.

Again, I don't want to discourage you from voting, or change your vote. I'm just curious.

[Hoblit]

How am I being rude or strong-arm? I'm using factual evidence to illustrate the cognitive dissonance of your current and past positions.

Listen - I think that, if a person has a fundamental social and economic policy disagreement with Obama, then they should absolutely vote their conscience. If, however, Obama represents almost exactly a person's primary choice for president, and continues to represent the values held by that candidate, I am very curious as to why that person would then turn around and vote for someone who is a polar opposite.

I am not accusing you of spite, or racism, or anything, and I certainly want you to vote. I'm really not even trying to change your mind. I'm genuinely curious as to the root problem that you have with the democratic ticket. My rebuttals are simply to try and clear away the 'smokescreen' objections and get to the real issue, whatever it may be. I envision a possible future in politics for myself (probably in the back-end of things), and I'd like to know as much as possible about how different people perceive politics and make their decisions.

During the primaries, it seemed your only hesitation about Obama was that you thought (fairly) that he couldn't win a general election at this point in time. Our country is about to show its stripes by electing a black man with a funny name. He's run a respectable, efficient, well-organized grass-roots campaign, demonstrating leadership qualities that I think we can agree is needed for the white house.

The point is, if you had been decrying Hillary's clearly populist policies for months while supporting her, we wouldn't be having this conversation. If Clinton had won the primary, would you vote against her for supporting the bailout?

Unfortunately, 3rd parties have little chance for the foreseeable future, but I think it's perfectly acceptable for people to vote 3rd party if they agree with the platform, which is why I implied that I'd be encouraging you if you were supporting someone like Nader, who represents Clinton-esque values run through a tubescreamer.

Again, I don't want to discourage you from voting, or change your vote. I'm just curious.

You were being very aggressive and by saying 'not good enough' you undermine my ability to have an opinion without providing you every detail. I understand you are curious and I can appreciate that, your previous statements didn't come of that way to me.

No... Clinton would not get my vote now either.

You're right 3rd parties have little chance for the foreseeable future. However, its going to stay that way if we don't do anything about it.

I'm not happy with the big two and I'm seriously upset at both of them and their stance on this bail out bill. *I'm* very passionate about how we are getting treated on that issue. I'm not going into detail but already we've seen two or three of these companies spend lavishly on themselves after receiving billions of dollars from you and I. I rent... so again my tax money is helping corporate giant banks that I'm not even using. Those banks now have no incentive to work against foreclosures, they got their money and now the little guy is just that much easier to close up shop on.

I could go on and on but I'm just trying to give you a better idea about why I'm so against the top two choices now. From this you might be able to gather why I'd lean towards the Libertarian party this time around. I stress, 'this time around'. I'm not a Libertarian. I'm a registered democrat.

[jb]

suck it, hoblit! suck it! hahahahahahahahHAAHAHAHAAAAAA

*running away*

[Hoblit]

suck it, hoblit! suck it! hahahahahahahahHAAHAHAHAAAAAA

*running away*

HEY! I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE AND I'LL BE UP THERE LATER THIS WEEK! So watch it there, bucko!