Nur Ein III Round One "Sleepwalking"

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Lunkhead »

Frankie, I meant the keyboard sound, which sounded like a Rhodes or something, with a chorus, tremolo, Leslie, vibrato, auto-wah, or other such warbly effect on it. It comes in right when you start singing for the first time. I felt like the effect on it, whatever it was, took away from the quiet atmosphere you have going in the verses, where I really want to focus just on the vocals.

Also, I would just like to add to my resume as a judge that I had 10 years of piano lessons, sung choir in grade school, and played French horn for 10 years in orchestra and concert band. :P
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by jb »

Adam! wrote:
frankie big face wrote:[Your] overemphasis on the challenge is lame.
I'm sorry you feel that way; you will likely be disappointed to hear that, with so many amazing musicians in this competition, when it comes time to rank the songs I will probably be relying on challenge and title usage more and more to serve as "tie-breakers".
In the post-mortem of both ADD's entry, it was revealed that the use of crescendo was both more subtle and integral to the piece than you had thought, and you mentioned that had you been aware of that you would have placed him higher. If you can't be sure that you've really understood the contestant's response to the challenge, then it seems dangerous to use a possibly-incorrect assumption as your tie-breaker.

Just a caution, as you seem to be trying to create an objective tie-breaker. Maybe, because of the difficulty in recognizing truly clever and subtle responses to the challenges, using them as tie-breaker criteria isn't going to yield best results for you as a judge, and may lead to regrets and eventually suicide. I think using some other distinct criteria, different for each pair of songs you are trying to decide between, may be a better route to success and happiness overall in your life. You could then reveal that each week-- "These two were about even to me, so I picked the JBB because it was shorter/had cello/had six more layers of harmony/used a chicken shaker and the other one didn't."

HTH,


JB

P.S. I've never heard the term "hairpin" used as slang for a crescendo marking. You learn something every day. I will begin using it at every opportunity now.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

Adam! wrote:when it comes time to rank the songs I will probably be relying on challenge and title usage more and more to serve as "tie-breakers".
Crap! I better rethink my personal challenge of purposely not using the title in my songs this year.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by frankie big face »

Lunkhead wrote: Also, I would just like to add to my resume as a judge that I had 10 years of piano lessons, sung choir in grade school, and played French horn for 10 years in orchestra and concert band. :P
Yeah, in CALIFORNIA. :lol:
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by frankie big face »

jb wrote: P.S. I've never heard the term "hairpin" used as slang for a crescendo marking. You learn something every day. I will begin using it at every opportunity now.
Yes, but do you know which composer was the first to use this marking? DO YOU!

It was Telemann.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Lunkhead »

frankie big face wrote:
Lunkhead wrote: Also, I would just like to add to my resume as a judge that I had 10 years of piano lessons, sung choir in grade school, and played French horn for 10 years in orchestra and concert band. :P
Yeah, in CALIFORNIA. :lol:
It was all in Connecticut, where I grew up. (Not that I don't think dissing the CA educational system is funny.)
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Adam! »

jb wrote:you seem to be trying to create an objective tie-breaker.
Ok, this is something I should probably clear up: my ranking criteria is descriptive, not prescriptive. I'm not trying to come up with some new-fangled ultra-complicated scheme, I'm just trying to explain my personal preferences to those who <insert some non-offensive synonym of 'requested' here> them. In the end, it essentially all boils down to how much I like the song, which is probably as far from objective as possible.
jb wrote:Maybe, because of the difficulty in recognizing truly clever and subtle responses to the challenges, using them as tie-breaker criteria isn't going to yield best results for you as a judge, and may lead to regrets and eventually suicide. I think using some other distinct criteria, different for each pair of songs you are trying to decide between, may be a better route to success and happiness overall in your life. You could then reveal that each week-- "These two were about even to me, so I picked the JBB because it was shorter/had cello/had six more layers of harmony/used a chicken shaker and the other one didn't."
Perhaps "tie-breaker" is not the best term I could have used? I mean it in the sense that, after exhausting all my other comparison criteria, I last look to the title and challenge usage (I cannot ignore them entirely). So, your examples of "was shorter", "had a cello", "had six more layers of harmony", and "used a chicken shaker" would fall under "engaging music" or "slick production" in my hierarchy, giving your song the edge long before I considered the challenge, or probably even the lyrics.

Hope that makes sense. If anyone still thinks why I like some things and not other things is whack, remember that there are four other judges to help average it all out.
Billy's Little Trip wrote:
Adam! wrote:when it comes time to rank the songs I will probably be relying on challenge and title usage more and more to serve as "tie-breakers".
Crap! I better rethink my personal challenge of purposely not using the title in my songs this year.
For the record, I like how you've been approaching the titles so far.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Ross »

Once again, we all have our own views on how to approach both titles and challenges, but it seems to me that the responsibility is on the artist to meet the challenge in a way that the judge will at least notice. And this is coming from a guy who lost to both of you :-)

But I thought I had a pretty good crescendo.

Sorry about the mix Adam! I struggled with it a lot because I had trouble getting rid of mud. I also mix on headphones, which I know does not help - thanks for the third listen though.

On that note - Given that I mix on phones - does anyone have a suggestion for some around $100 that would be fairly good for this purpose? I currently use Sony MDR-V300.

Thanks.

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Jefff »

I think the Sony MDR-7506s that I use (that were recommended to me by JB) are considered a standard. They're about $100.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by frankie big face »

Lunkhead wrote: It was all in Connecticut, where I grew up. (Not that I don't think dissing the CA educational system is funny.)
Ooh, they actually know what they're doing there. Okay, you pass. :wink:
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by ken »

Jefff wrote:I think the Sony MDR-7506s that I use (that were recommended to me by JB) are considered a standard. They're about $100.
I think the Sony MDR-7506s are great tracking headphones (in fact, I use them), but not so good for mixing. I think they are too bright, meaning the top end is overly prominent. You want a flat pair of headphones for mixing. I use the Sennheiser HD-580s, which is the budget version of the Sennheiser HD-650 (I think) which are considered audiophile grade. I have a friend who has these and even upgraded the cables to be MORE audiophile!

My next pair of headphones is going to be the Audio Technica ATH-M50. These are reasonably priced, comfy to wear, and sound amazingly smooth. I highly suggest them to anyone looking for a set of headphones for mixing.

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by obscurity »

FWIW, I mix by headphones all the time and swear by the Beyerdynamic DT100 Pro headphones. Comfortable enough to wear for hours on end, wide frequency response range and high SPL.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

When I blew out my Sony MDR studio phones, I bought the Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro Closed Dynamic Headphones. A bit more than you said that you want to spend, Ross, but these things are great for mixing. Very flat, very low frequency range and understated highs, so you tend to get the highs EQ'd better. Plus, you can wear these for days without ear ache.
They sound awful for listening to music because they have one purpose, mixing, nothing else.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by MC Eric B »

This may be a stupid question, but if you use a special fancy headphones for mixing the song, and then you and most other people use a normal headphones or no headphones at all for listening to the song, then won't most people hear it totally different than you mixed it? Wouldn't you want to mix it however most people hear will hear it?
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by king_arthur »

Well, if you could be guaranteed that everybody else had the same headphones you had, then that would make sense. But since some people will listen on speakers (of various types in various environments) and others will listen on headphones of various types, you kinda want to mix on phones that will give you something that will play best in a variety of environments.

Of course, the best solution is to create your mix and then PLAY it in a bunch of different environments - car stereo, home stereo, iPod, computer speakers, headphones - but if you're trying to do this fast, and can't / don't mix on speakers, you want a set of headphones that will give you the best hope for a good compromise.

The Sony MDR 7506 headphones have been mentioned here (or in some other current thread). They are maybe not the best headphones for mixing, but they do have the advantage that almost any studio / classroom / etc. will have a pair, so if you are used to what music should sound like on 7506s, you can usually find a pair to mix on if you're not mixing in your own studio. And they're pretty good for listening / tracking.

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Ross »

I can almost guarantee that most of your favorite records were mixed on something much better than whatever you listen to them on - exception being Phil Spector. Do you figure the new Madonna record was mixed on iPod headphones?

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by starfinger »

Ross wrote: I got Sennheiser HD 280 Pros
I just got these [cheap!], and I've been really pleased with how the mixes translate. It's just not practical in my current setup to do an entire mix on my monitors anymore (mackie hr-624)

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Spud »

So, I figured I should take this downtime to remix our Sleepwalking, per several suggestions in the reviews. I have done the following:

1. I got Crash (the artist formerly known as Bud) to do the female parts (which are supposed to be her, anyway).
2. I brought the drums in sooner, which displaced some of the damned beeping.
3. I dropped Mad Dog back on the choruses. Couldn't bring myself to either get rid of him entirely or let him solo, so I did the best I could to turn it into a shadow vocal.

http://www.songhole.org/octothorpe/musi ... _remix.mp3

I also remixed Unnatural Disaster, but I'm not going to post that until after the judging.

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Adam! »

Nice, Spud. The expanded drum part really livens up the song, and I'm glad to hear Bud... er, I mean Crash, although now I realize your manic imitation had a certain charm to it.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Niveous »

Better late than never:

Here are my reviews for Sleepwalking. I apologize for taking so long to get them out.

15-16 Puzzle's song is quite an amazing little song. The crescendo is weak and I really wish that you would've followed up with it for a longer amount of time. But the song is definitely saved by Erik's great lyrics. The first time I was a bit confused but the more I listened, the more I got it and the more I enjoyed them.

The keyboards on Adam Adamant's song drive me to the brink of murder. The plink-plink tap of them is a grating rhythm to hear throughout a song and then on the chorus there was some extra added cheesy synths. This is not the best song that Adam Adamant can produce. And what was the crescendo in that? I think it was the suddenly loud bit after the synth solo but there was no build.

ADD's song is very well crafted. The lyrics are good and his performance is top notch. I think my favorite thing about the song is the guitars. It's a good song. It's not the type that's gonna get stuck in your head but it's good. It's not the single, it's the deep cut.

Andrew Reist has grown up so much musically since NE2. Lyrically, this is a bit weak. "I'm gonna fall if I don't let go" for instance grated on me. The guitar solo is very very nice. Again, this is a very good song but it's not a standout track. He needs to watch out with some of his voice choices. His high register isn't that strong.

BLT has already heard the Beatles comparison so I won't make it. Oops I already made it. I can't place my finger on just what it is about this song that fails with me. The guitar is a nifty little riff and the bass accentuates it well. The lyrics may be the failing with all the turnstyle, shoestring, surething, whatever whatever. Or maybe the vocals just need to contrast some from the guitar riff and they don't, they ride the same wave.

BK's crescendo is the most literal way to fulfill the challenge and the cheesiest at the same time. The song is okay but not fabulous. It's a mellow little tune that doesn't feel like 4 minutes and when I play it, it just becomes background music for whatever I'm doing. It's enough to survive the round but for damn sure, it ain't enough to win this whole thing.

I want Cock to be my bassist when the Nur Ein is over. The bass in his songs is always the strongest part. The vocals are usually the weakest but this time, it was the curse of the cheesy synth. And this is another song with no lyrical flavor. Give me a story. Drag me in. I can listen to this and get swept up in the bass and miss the lyrics entirely.

FBF's song plods along. I'm on the train listening to this and honestly I need to stop or else I'm going to fall asleep. A stronger build on the song or more energy in some parts would help this song live up to its potential. And what's with the sudden dropout? Not one of Frankie's best.

Glenn & Rachael are next and as usual Rachael's vocals are great and Glenn going with the falsetto was a nice touch. I've heard Glenn crash and burn with that high register but here he does a great job. The bridge has a nice little build to it. This is a fabulous song. Well done.

JBB brought out his secret weapon- the cello. I'm a big sucker for cellos. From Jacqueline DuPre to Rasputina, cellos are awesome and in this song, the cello is a perfect addition. This is great from top to bottom. JB's vocals are well done. The guitars are good. The lyrics are nice. It's all good and deserved the win.

I feel like Jim Tyrrell was either caught by the time clinch or just felt like othrs would screw up far worse than he. This is a rockabilly nothing. It's as if he sleepwalked through the making of the song. It's decent but it's not special or rememberable.

Now Ken's is rememberable. I think he had the most catchy song in the whole round. I didn't think I would be able to deal with that particular guitar riff for so long but it worked out. The bridge has a good build and the cheesy synths ended up actually enhancing the last verse, whereas it has hurt so many other songs in the Nur Ein.

King Arthur's song is very reminiscent of the Captain Powerpoint theme he did for me, at least musically. This is carried by some great lyrics. Other people may not like the superdick line but I loved it. It reeked of looking at your e-mail and seeing a spam ad. This will get many more spins on my jukebox.

Lord of Oats, what have you done? Basically, you hit some kind of roadblock and turned it into an 8 minute warbling mess. Technological crunch. Whatever.

MC Eric B delivered an okay song. I really wish that he would find himself a singer to work with. I think if he would do the Lonbobby thing and find an array of women to sing for him and just handle the music and lyrics, he would do much better for himself. I always have a problem with his vocal delivery.

# brought the beep. If I had an alarm clock that got gradually louder, I'd wanna kill. I like a good song that tells a story, so this works for me. My favorite part is the guitar solo. It sounds almost like a theremin with the warbly effects on it. Nice. (Watch, I'm probably talking out of my ass and can't recognize what I just heard).

Paco del Stinko gets points from me for best use of the challenge as the whole damn song is one continuous build. It reminds me of Embrace's "How Come" in the way it's built. I love how as we listen, a little more is added to the mix until at the end, it's a towering inferno. Crescendoes always work best when they climax towards the end of a song, in my opinion.

Ross Durand sounds like he should be backed by the E-Street band. It's a straight up rock song with a nice chorus. I can't really dog a song like this. The performance is good. Lyrically, it's pretty alright. The crescendo on the solo is okay, not the best. It gets too loud, too fast. Other than that, what can I say? It's a nice song. It's not gonna set the world on fire but it's good.

Sausage Boy always brings the experiments and musically this worked well but the lyrics were abysmal. A few self-reflexive comments are okay but a whole song about needing more time to make the song doesn't work with me. This is this year's Bryan Kandel "Brownie Points". And the vocals could use some work. I don't mind the crazy crescendo, actually I think it was my favorite part.

Starfinger had a great groove on his song. This is song I could really dig live. But he's gotta watch the high register as his voice wavers heavily on those big notes. There are some really good lyrics on this. The second verse is phenomenal. This just needs some tightening up to be really special. I hope that he keeps working on it.

Sven knows that his strength lies in his guitar and he wisely goes with that. The intro to this is very Cure-esque. I think the bigger guitars may be a bit too loud in the mix but still the song has a great atmosphere to it. The speed up at about 2:30 weakens the whole but it's not that enough to ruin a good song. I preferred the first half much more than the second.

Tex Beaumont tried some techno and it didn't pan out at all. His vocals sound garbled in some parts and the beat to this just grates after a while and it's a 4 minute song. I just don't think electronica is your thing.

And lastly, The WSA. Wow, I just got really distracted and forgot that I was supposed to be reviewing this. That's no good. There's something about the dynamics of this song that is just lacking. I know that the delivery is intentional with its quiet lullaby-esque vocals, but I think the mix needs something more to balance it all out. I think better percussion would be the way to go and bringing Glennny's great guitars to the forefront a little more (don't overwhelm the vocals but just let the guitars accentuate them) could help this song.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

Niveous wrote:BLT has already heard the Beatles comparison so I won't make it. Oops I already made it. I can't place my finger on just what it is about this song that fails with me. The guitar is a nifty little riff and the bass accentuates it well. The lyrics may be the failing with all the turnstyle, shoestring, surething, whatever whatever. Or maybe the vocals just need to contrast some from the guitar riff and they don't, they ride the same wave.
Sure, I'm not the writer that you are, but I mean every word that comes out of my mouth. I wish you wrote all my lyrics. :P
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Spud »

Niveous wrote:My favorite part is the guitar solo. It sounds almost like a theremin with the warbly effects on it. Nice. (Watch, I'm probably talking out of my ass and can't recognize what I just heard).
No, you got it. It's a guitar with warbly effects on it. Thanks for the review.

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