Nur Ein III Round Two "Unnatural Disaster"

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by jb »

Yeah, it's disconcerting that anybody who did something somewhat nontraditional was at most "below the fold" on the results. Judges are of course not forced to like anything they don't like, but I did find myself shaking my head a bit over these results.

Might be indicative of the general problem with music sales these days-- everything has to be the best thing ever. There's no deep cuts from side two, because they'd never sell, or wouldn't get a lot of votes. On the one hand, this makes you work hard, but on the other it means that people will make more of what's already selling, and people will make fewer songs that you have to work at to understand or enjoy, and 2:42-syndrome will run rampant. In today's market would there be a Bohemian Rhapsody or Stairway to Heaven?

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by frankie big face »

Actually, I think this is just what happens when you get five people with very different tastes and score them according to this system. The songs that score the highest are those that somehow manage to appeal to all five of them (or maybe four of them). Last year, there were some pretty clear winners on occasion (if I remember correctly), meaning that a really great song was on the top of ALL the judges' lists. This year, it seems like a song can appear very high on one list and very low on the next, putting it in the middle of the pack. I'm just rambling, but I think it would be hard to appeal to both Merisan and Rabid Garfunkel with the same song, which is why I don't even try--I just write and record what sounds good to me.

But I do have a question and a confession. First the question: are the judges consistently numbered? In other words, is Judge #1 the same person this round as in previous rounds? Because I will admit/confess that I was curious to see if my foray into punk would earn me more points with this judge and it seems to have worked. On the other hand, I didn't really lose ground with the other judges, so that was a surprise. Of course, I brought a better song this week, so I guess that's the real moral of the story: write better songs.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by glennny »

I asked that question last year, my understanding is the judge number is the order in which Niv receives them. So no, the judge number is not the same week to week. I know which judge hates my band, but I can't figure out why. I look forward to his reviews.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Niveous »

I think even the jury's shaking their heads over the results. If you look at the breakdown of the judge's results, they were all over the place. Ross's song got a 75 out of a 90. Not exactly a unanimous win. It wasn't a case of nobody likes the experimental stuff.
I, for one, love a good experimental track.

Frankie's right. It was just how the votes fell. With Reist, two judges had him at the bottom, 3 had him still going on. But it all added up to elimination. Cock had 3 judges putting him for elimination and 2 that had him closer to the top. It was all over the place.

Don't shy away from experimenting, folks. Look who's on the jury. It's full of people who like taking a musical risk. Yes, 15-16 Puzzle's experimental rap got him eliminated. I can't speak for the whole jury but I know I voted it low because it got threadbarren very quickly, as if he had a good song idea and had no follow through.

As for the mysterious judge numbers, they change all the time.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Lunkhead »

frankie big face wrote:Actually, I think this is just what happens when you get five people with very different tastes and score them according to this system. The songs that score the highest are those that somehow manage to appeal to all five of them (or maybe four of them).
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It can be very puzzling, even to the judges it turns out.
frankie big face wrote:...I think it would be hard to appeal to both Merisan and Rabid Garfunkel with the same song, which is why I don't even try--I just write and record what sounds good to me.
This is a wise approach, I think.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Ross »

Holy crap!!! - genuinely surprised and honored.

I don't know what more to say.

Looking forward to the next round.

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Jefff »

Niveous wrote:I can't speak for the whole jury but I know I voted it low because it got threadbarren very quickly, as if he had a good song idea and had no follow through.
No, dig UP, you idiots. ;)

Seriously, no offense to the judges. Your opinions are your opinions. It's just that Nur Ein is by its nature arbitrary, and that can be really frustrating.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by erik »

Niveous wrote:Don't shy away from experimenting, folks. Look who's on the jury. It's full of people who like taking a musical risk. Yes, 15-16 Puzzle's experimental rap got him eliminated. I can't speak for the whole jury but I know I voted it low because it got threadbarren very quickly, as if he had a good song idea and had no follow through.
Not to get all defensivey, but from a songwriting and arranging perspective, the song came out exactly how I wanted: minimalist on the verses and then fuller for the hook. I didn't want to make something that was sonically dense. I am intrigued by sparse rap songs.

Regardless of whether the judges themselves enjoy taking a musical risk, submitting music that sounds nothing like the rest of your music is dangerous at a stage in a competition where the top score for each judge is 17 points higher than the lowest score. If you're in it to win it, it's probably not the best strategy from a mathematical viewpoint.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Lunkhead »

Folks on SF! have pretty wildly diverse tastes in the music they listen to and create, too. (I bet the participants' opinions about the judges' music are just as varied as the judges' opinions about the participants' music.) So I guess the Nur Ein judges are representative of that. I think having a panel of judges helps average things out to some degree, though. Maybe more judges would help average things out better, or maybe that would make things too complicated, I don't know.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Niveous »

erik wrote:
Niveous wrote:stuff
other stuff
It wasn't the fact that the verse was minimal. I felt like all the good stuff happened in the first half of the song. After about 1:25, everything else became filler. The second verse is nowhere near as strong as the first and the last seconds just seemed to drag on. You could've ended it with the second backwards bit and been fine.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by erik »

I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said "threadbarren" and "no follow through".
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by erin. »

frankie big face wrote:...I think it would be hard to appeal to both Merisan and Rabid Garfunkel with the same song, which is why I don't even try--I just write and record what sounds good to me.
This reminds me of Merisan trying to appeal to the tastes of Charcoal and Glenn last year. Not. gonna. happen.

Sam and I as "Merisan" have been discussing our rankings before we decide on our final list. This round, we were at odds for many of the scores, and had to really listen to each song multiple times to see why we thought each song was ranked as it was. It's a very thoughtful process. And here's a hint...Just because Sam is a guitar man, and I'm a singer/songwriter does NOT mean that is all we are paying attention to.
:wink:
As far as experimenting goes...As someone who decided to write and sing a song in Spanish in round two of last year's contest..(Which raised more than a few eyebrows and negative comments) I can appreciate going with your inspiration. The time you have to make your songs is precious...so I encourage folks to really go with what they feel compelled by.
It might be the only way to get your song in on time.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by frankie big face »

erik wrote:...in a competition where the top score for each judge is 17 points higher than the lowest score. If you're in it to win it, it's probably not the best strategy from a mathematical viewpoint.
I never really thought about this, but that's why I don't edit math textbooks for a living. With every round each of those points becomes more valuable because there are less of them to go around. (Or is it the other way around? My head hurts.)
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by frankie big face »

erin. wrote:This round, we were at odds for many of the scores...
This is why I don't support you as a (sic) judge. Every time the two of you make a list, it's already a compromise. It mucks with the integrity of the system and it gives each of you an "out" when it comes to supporting your opinions. Sample fictitious exchange: FBF: Sam, I can't believe you rated me so low. Sam: Well, actually, I liked your song a lot, but Erin didn't. FBF: But now I'm eliminated! Sam: Yeah, sorry about that. :shock:

P.S. If you decide to reply to this post, don't focus on the latter--that's not the important part and I was just having fun. It's the former part that's important--the part about the compromise.

P.P.S. To elaborate, even if you were to say, "yeah, but I would probably run my list by (Erin/Sam) anyway just because we talk about everything," it's still not the same as actually posting the list that determines who stays and who goes. I can imagine a scenario where a single judge (let's say Erin for argument's sake) says to Sam, "I respect your opinion, but I simply cannot put FBF lower than #1 this week!" and Sam has to say "Okay dear, I understand even though I think he should be 10th." But as a team, I imagine it goes more like this: "I respect your opinion Sam, but I really feel FBF had the best song. How about if we split the difference and put him 5th?" and Sam says, "Okay dear" AND THEN I AM ELIMINATED. :shock:
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by erin. »

I can understand your concern. But to be honest, whether or not Merisan is one person with multiple personalities, or two people who are sharing opinions..."we" are not not the only judge to use compromise to determine our rankings.
May I also remind you that "we" wrote and recorded 7 songs in the last NurEin...TOGETHER. That is why "we" are probably judging your songs in this contest...right now.

Is it all that scandalous?

Besides..Do you think on "The Gong Show" they had just Sonny and not Cher on the panel of judges?

:wink:
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Lunkhead »

We come up with a ranking, and that ranking is factored in just as if it had been generated by one person (or a robot, or 1000 monkeys, etc.). The end result is the same, which is that the final ranking is the sum of the rankings from the "five" judges. I don't really see what is being compromised, except possibly my opinions, and Erin's. Personally, I don't mind that, but maybe Erin feels differently. I don't see how it effects the integrity of the system, but I'm not sure I even understand what "the integrity of the system" is, to be honest. (I mean, we're talking about the third iteration of a casual online songwriting contest with no entry fee and no prizes, right?) You're right that it is harder to draw a line connecting reviews from one of us to a specific judge's ranking, unlike with the other judges. But I don't think either one of us would bother to be dishonest about how we ranked the songs. My own personal strategy, which I would apply even if I were just judging by myself, is to be clear about who I ranked first, and who I ranked in the elimination zone, and not really go into details about the rankings of the rest. I think my reviews for Round One are an example of that. Anyway, I'm not trying to be defensive or inflammatory, so if I'm coming across that way, my apologies. I'm also not going to go on and on about it anymore. We're not going to bow out, so at this point all you can do is remember to insist on five individual judges next year before it's too late.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Caravan Ray »

Here's how I saw them this week:

19. Tex Beaumont and the Dirty Hearts
18. Frankie Big Face
17. Ken Mahru
16. Paco del Stinko
15. Billy's Little Trip
14. Ross Durand
13. Jim Tyrrell
12. ADD
11. Adam Adamant
10. JBB
09. Andrew Reist
08. Bryan Kandel
07. King Arthur
06. Cock
05. Glenn and Rachael
04. Starfinger
03.The Worldly Self-Assurance
02. Octothorpe
01. 15-16 Puzzle

- normally I would modestly place myself down at the bottom - but this week I think I nailed what I was trying to do quite well. It is quite possibly, not only the best song I have ever done, but the best song anyone has ever done.

FBF was the next best until the pan pipes came in - and I dropped it down - then the pan pipes were reversed, and it went back up again!
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Spud »

note to self: don't support CR's nomination as a judge next year.

also, here's that remix I promised: http://www.songhole.org/octothorpe/musi ... _remix.mp3

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by frankie big face »

Lunkhead wrote:I don't really see what is being compromised, except possibly my opinions, and Erin's. Personally, I don't mind that, but maybe Erin feels differently.
Clearly, she doesn't or she wouldn't have agreed to be a judge with you. Or do whatever else she does with you!
Lunkhead wrote:I don't see how it effects the integrity of the system, but I'm not sure I even understand what "the integrity of the system" is, to be honest. (I mean, we're talking about the third iteration of a casual online songwriting contest with no entry fee and no prizes, right?)
The system has the same amount of integrity as any other deliberately designed system. There is a set of rules, an order and an outcome. How much value you personally place on the system doesn't change the fact that it has integrity.
Lunkhead wrote:You're right that it is harder to draw a line connecting reviews from one of us to a specific judge's ranking, unlike with the other judges. But I don't think either one of us would bother to be dishonest about how we ranked the songs. My own personal strategy, which I would apply even if I were just judging by myself, is to be clear about who I ranked first, and who I ranked in the elimination zone, and not really go into details about the rankings of the rest.
And actually, after I walked away from my computer, I realized that my examples (where I cheekily ranked myself 1st all the time) were actually not the best examples because the entrants who really get hurt by two judges sharing a post are those in the middle. For example, if you were a lone judge and you felt that 15-16 Puzzle should have been ranked 5th this week, but Erin convinced you to rank him 10th, it would make the difference between him being eliminated and finishing in 11th place. And that's a significant difference to anyone who is interested in staying in the contest.
Lunkhead wrote:Anyway, I'm not trying to be defensive or inflammatory, so if I'm coming across that way, my apologies. I'm also not going to go on and on about it anymore. We're not going to bow out, so at this point all you can do is remember to insist on five individual judges next year before it's too late.
You're not and you don't even have to defend yourself because you volunteered to do it as a team and nobody at the time (even me) saw a problem with it, so you're absolutely in the right. I don't think you should "bow out" and I don't think I ever implied that you should. But when Erin makes a comment like "This round, we were at odds for many of the scores...," I feel compelled to bring up what I perceive to be a problem with the integrity of this year's judging.

Because we were discussing the judging.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Thanks For The Frisbee »

Caravan Ray wrote:Here's how I saw them this week:

19. Tex Beaumont and the Dirty Hearts
18. Frankie Big Face
17. Ken Mahru
16. Paco del Stinko
15. Billy's Little Trip
14. Ross Durand
13. Jim Tyrrell
12. ADD
11. Adam Adamant
10. JBB
09. Andrew Reist
08. Bryan Kandel
07. King Arthur
06. Cock
05. Glenn and Rachael
04. Starfinger
03.The Worldly Self-Assurance
02. Octothorpe
01. 15-16 Puzzle

!
clearly you did not recieve the WSA gift basket :wink:
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Lunkhead »

Our differences of opinion are going to help some people and hurt others, just like amongst the other judges. Say I wanted to rank Erik 10th but we ranked him 5th, for example, he'd survive and not be eliminated. So the only way that would really matter overall is if one of us had some kind of consistent personal bias for/against specific people, which I guarantee you is not the case. But that case would be even worse if the biased person were judging individually as their ranking would have more influence in the overall ranking. So frankie, if you're actually just concerned that I'm ranking you last every round then you should be happy that Erin's opinions would moderate that. ;)
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round 2

Post by Caravan Ray »

Jefff wrote:Can we vote judges off?
Yeah - What number do I text the words "Judge 4" to?
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