Nur Ein VIII Round Four "Down to Under"

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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by frankie big face »

By the way, I too am sad to see WreckdoM go. Ben Krieger too. You're both so creative. As a competitor, I'm glad to no longer have to face you, but as a fan, I'm sad.'

Still rank Ben's "Headphones" as one of the monumental achievements in Nur Ein history.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by Lunkhead »

Get a room, you two.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by Caravan Ray »

Quite surprised to see myself getting through.

But obviously, the judges in their wisdom know best. Well, not counting Judges 2 and 6 who rated me last - they are obviously idiots - but the other 4 judges know best.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by roymond »

frankie big face wrote: (P.S. Comma in this post purposely outside the quotes in your honor.)
Which makes you my hero.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by Caravan Ray »

Eric Y wrote:The Tydon Docks - From this, I'm gathering that your interpretation of "metal" is "just take a traditional hard-rock song, then add some extra instrumental tracks into the mix so that the whole thing sounds like a mess."
Yes. Is there a problem with this?

Oh, I know it also involves hair, spandex and falsetto - but otherwise you got it right.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by ValleyOfSteelstress »

governingdynamics wrote: Really appreciate it (and your reviews for the other rounds), and glad you liked it. It seems this was a "love it or hate it" type song but most of the judges were on the side unfavorable to me.

I'm disappointed I got eliminated, but considering the point spread with the three bands/people ahead of me I don't feel all that bad. There will some Nein action if I have time and hopefully I can finally get around to writing some reviews. Thanks to everybody for making me feel welcome.
I would not say that was the case with me, I also liked your song. I'm not gonna lie though it wasn't my favorite but I liked it, I think you have potential to be a really awesome song writer and singer. Eric hit the Melvins reference right on the head there, (can't wait to see them next Monday) it had potential to be a really awesome garage rock song, you just needed to take it there vocally a little rougher for me. I say go for it next time, be gruff and not polished you're voice is amazing... and you could really excel at that! I also want to say thank you to you for being one of those who saw outside of the traditional metal standards and really had fun with this. I am sad to see you go. It was lovely getting to review your tunes!
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by ValleyOfSteelstress »

Caravan Ray wrote:
Eric Y wrote:The Tydon Docks - From this, I'm gathering that your interpretation of "metal" is "just take a traditional hard-rock song, then add some extra instrumental tracks into the mix so that the whole thing sounds like a mess."
Yes. Is there a problem with this?

Oh, I know it also involves hair, spandex and falsetto - but otherwise you got it right.
He usually likes a musical mess I was kinda shocked to see that, and I liked this musically lyrically... eh... but you're awesome and you know that.

A Musical Mess... but in a great way... note the title... it made me think of you because of this quote... that's why I posted it. It even has blast beats and bag pipe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG-Zu9juXUI
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by ValleyOfSteelstress »

I will be reviewing this round, only because I feel like I have something to say. Just need to wait til I get some actual work done today.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by glennny »

Eric Y wrote:
I'm not sure I understand: do you disagree that the first linked song isn't "metal", or that the second linked song is? I'm trying to avoid an all-encompassing discussion of what is or isn't "metal"; but I would assume that both of those opinions would be pretty much universally held.

On the other hand, it may be true that we differ in what we are reminded of when we hear your song, in addition to differing in how much we do or don't like what we are reminded of. These things happen.
I don't think our vocals sound like the Pink Dots, but thank you for thinking they sound like something you think is good. I'm totally baffled as to how you think the music sounds like Trapt. Trapt was a staple of Modern Rock on live 105 here in the Bay Area. So yeah , I don't think they're metal. This is the land of Metallica you know. It's no wonder you hated our song if it reminded you of them. To me our song reads like Metallica- ride the lightning, Queensryche -Operation Mindcrime, Judas Priest- Sad Wings of Destinty. Have you heard these albums?

Anyway, thanks for reviewing and responding!
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by Eric Y. »

I'm not going to touch the "have you heard any of these" comment.

I see where you're trying to go for a Judas Priest sort of thing with the doubled guitar leads (i.e., 0:16-0:30), but you already have several factors working against you: the extremely synthetic-sounding electronic drums, for example, and the overly-digitally-effected guitar sounds -- both of which are more reminiscent of the type of modern, technologically-driven "metal" that became prevalent in the early '00s, more so than any of the "classic metal" bands you wanted to sound like.

Regarding the Trapt thing: compare your song at 0:31-0:32, 1:36-1:39, 2:30-2:33, 3:26-3:27, and 3:50-3:52, with the guitar part in "Headstrong". Just listen to the first five seconds of the linked video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LZ00CL8pdI). As far as I'm concerned, the guitar tone, the rhythm, and even the particular pitches played, are virtually identical. This is made worse by how often that guitar figure is repeated throughout your song, leaving me unable to hear any other comparison but that one. And I have such a strong negative feeling toward that song, it drastically reduced how much I was able to enjoy your song.

Finally, I'm not trying to say the vocals sound precisely like the Legendary Pink Dots, but the starkness of the vocal part starting at 0:45 sounds far more synth/darkwave than metal (to my ears); the particular notes of the vocal melody at 1:16, 1:28 (and the same spot in each following iteration of the chorus) especially reminded me of the melody of "Blacklist".
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by glennny »

Thank you for the elaborate response.
I spent a lot of money on those Billy Martin drum loops precisely because I thought they didn't sound synthetic. It's probably poor mixing on my part that you could hear them that way, but I assure you those loops sound amazing and natural, because they are.

I think youre main problem is you listened to Trapt too much, I don't know that I ever made it through that song. ;)

Thanks again!

Cheers
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by Lunkhead »

Get a room, you two.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by BenKrieger »

frankie big face wrote:Still rank Ben's "Headphones" as one of the monumental achievements in Nur Ein history.
Thank you! That is by far the Nur Ein submission that I'm the most proud of. Sorry I won't get a chance to face you in the next round...officially. ;)
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by glennny »

The metal community was in controversy in the late 80s with digital effects on guitars. The sections you're referring to have tones and timbres similar to def leopard hysteria 1987, iron maiden- somewhere in time 1988, queensryche- rage for order 1987, judas priest turbo 1986. They didn't call those 00s bands metal in these parts.
I think you'd have a point with the slap bass in the solo section, but I still think it sounds great. Sounds like my folly was mostly a mix issue. That really sucks that you think the drums sound synthetic, I apprecieate you calling them like you hear them, but that's my 1st priority is to have good sounding drums. Epic fail.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by glennny »

Ben wrote:
But if it's because the tune wasn't metal enough, I swear to god I'm going to pummel you bastards with a corpse submission for Round 5.
I hope you combine the metal challenge with the falsetto challenge and go by the name of Leo Slayer.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by frankie big face »

Hey, it's about time I catch up on some listening!

Balance Lost - I kind of like this. It's more punk than metal, which suits me but maybe not the judges. In fact, the places where you try to make it more "metal" detract. The opening is crazy in a good way and the first verse reminds me of....Pavement maybe?

Carlo Bruno, Jr - Did you actually pronounce LEDs as "leds"? Never heard that before. I like the chaos of this. You're a great player. Cool stuff.

Cavedwellers - Hmmm....sounds like Long Distance Runaround on steroids (it's the bass line). Yeah, I probably wouldn't call this metal although it shares certain elements with metal. It's more like prog rock with an edge. I don't know about these lyrics. I love Star Wars but...this just seems so serious and it's hard to take that seriously. (My lyrics are stupid too---it was a shit title.) Incidentally, I don't think this is too long for a song of this type.

Chokehold Princess - Wow, this starts off like a lost Neutral Milk Hotel track. I'm kind of surprised you went this route after your awesome Dio impression from an earlier Nur Ein. My guess is you were eliminated for a whole host of reasons including the want you don't want to hear, which is that this song is not "metal enough." I'm guessing your lyrics have a metal theme with the mention of a hammer, a blade, a shovel, etc. I think this it interesting and catchy. Sorry to see you go.

Governing Dynamics - This is sludgy. Sometimes it sounds like the guitar and bass are not working together very well. The key seems ill-suited to your voice. I personally didn't like this but it's just a taste thing.

Manhattan Glutton - I'm sure many will say this is "not metal" as it is so grunge. But what I really can't get into is the vocal style. I understand the choice but I don't like it. Recording sounds great.

Merisan - Also not metal but rocking! Sam, your guitar skills are sick! (that means "good"—the kids say it now) And I like Erin's vocal style here and the double-tracking works. I wish there was like a breakdown or something right before the last chorus to break it up a bit. Fun syncopation at the end.

Paco - I think this could have won if you weren't already IMMUNE. I mean, it's kinda Spinal Tap-ish but so is almost all actual metal so why not. The crazy jig in the middle puts it over the edge. Nice job. Like a lost Black Sabbath track. And a guest appearance by SATAN himself!

Ross - This metal is apparently recorded on a 10th-generation cassette tape. Holy mids and highs! But seriously, that guitar tone is painful and doesn't blend well with your voice or the brass (which is really cool). I like the lyrics a lot. Good concept.

Tydon Docks - Holy crap I love your voice on the chorus! Where the hell did that come from? The middle section is funny but probably offensive to the metal-leaning judges. I love the 668 gag. Very clever. I don't know—this made me laugh and that's a good thing. Oh, and I already mentioned earlier I like the pre-edited lyrics (before you added the middle part, which is also pretty good).

WreckdoM - This seems inordinately LOUD to me. I think the connection between the verses and the chorus is a bit tenuous lyrically. I blame the title which was damn near impossible to make sensible. I don't know if this metal exactly but it has enough Mike Patton in it to count as far as I'm concerned. Sorry to see you go.

Frankie Big Face - Just a quick tidbit about my song. The entire thing germinated from the line "turn me into something that I'm not" which is exactly what I set out to do. It's funny how a single line can generate an entire song.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by BenKrieger »

frankie big face wrote:I'm kind of surprised you went this route after your awesome Dio impression from an earlier Nur Ein. My guess is you were eliminated for a whole host of reasons including the want you don't want to hear, which is that this song is not "metal enough." I'm guessing your lyrics have a metal theme with the mention of a hammer, a blade, a shovel, etc. I think this it interesting and catchy. Sorry to see you go.
Believe me, I feel the same way. When I saw the challenge, I thought I could easily go the metal genre route, but I saw some of the initial posts about xylaphones and whatnot and thought, "oh cool, people are going to take the word 'metal' in different directions." So I wrote the song Wednesday morning and recorded it that night. The metal is not the lyrics, it's the arrangement: I used some homemade metal noisemakers made from springs and steel roofing "L" brackets. The clang/scraping starts in the second verse and the twisted spring sounds are used in the second prechorus to build tension before the chorus. Then they're used throughout the rest of the song and are mixed at the surface during the last 10 seconds or so. But anyway, when I went back to the board I saw the challenge had been clarified and I felt foolish because, yeah, when it comes to metal the genre I can bring it hard and would have moved onto the next round pretty easily. My time was front-loaded this week, so I couldn't really do another song, just mix the one I had. And because everyone was listening for the songs to sound like heavy metal, it seems like at least a few judges probably missed the blatant metal sound effects because it's not what they were looking for. But that's how these things work. :roll:
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by Eric Y. »

Ben -- for what it's worth, I really enjoyed most (if not all) of your previous entries. Unfortunately, this one did basically nothing for me. I didn't rate your song low because I didn't think it was "metal enough" to meet the challenge, but perhaps it was because it wasn't "metal enough" that it simply didn't appeal to me. I guess. But I am sorry that we won't be getting any more entries from you.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by Lunkhead »

It seems like over the years the judges have been more likely to miss the point with less obvious challenge fulfillment, and ding contestants that they think didn't met the challenge, rather than ding contestants for obvious but merely adequate challenge fulfillment. Based on that behavior pattern, it would seem like the safest (though potentially least interesting) route to avoiding being penalized is to make sure the challenge fulfillment is at least obvious, if not also creative. But that's just if your primary objective is to play the game, rank well, win, etc. versus making the songs you want to make.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by glennny »

Frankie said:
I love Star Wars but...this just seems so serious and it's hard to take that seriously.
Do you feel this way about "To Tame a Land" by Iron Maiden (a song about Dune)?
Fantasy worlds I always thought were very metal subject matter. Besides when I think of the best metal I think of 1977-1983 which coincides with New Hope Empire and Jedi.

I love the comment Long Distance Runaround on steroids, but I don't think I agree with it. Thanks for the review.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by frankie big face »

glennny wrote:Frankie said:
I love Star Wars but...this just seems so serious and it's hard to take that seriously.
Do you feel this way about "To Tame a Land" by Iron Maiden (a song about Dune)?
Fantasy worlds I always thought were very metal subject matter. Besides when I think of the best metal I think of 1977-1983 which coincides with New Hope Empire and Jedi.

I love the comment Long Distance Runaround on steroids, but I don't think I agree with it. Thanks for the review.
To answer your first question, yes. But I understand where you're coming from.

As for LDR, it's the bass line at around 0:46.
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Re: Nur Ein VIII- Round Four

Post by roymond »

Lunkhead wrote:It seems like over the years the judges have been more likely to miss the point with less obvious challenge fulfillment, and ding contestants that they think didn't met the challenge, rather than ding contestants for obvious but merely adequate challenge fulfillment. Based on that behavior pattern, it would seem like the safest (though potentially least interesting) route to avoiding being penalized is to make sure the challenge fulfillment is at least obvious, if not also creative. But that's just if you're primary objective is to play the game, rank well, win, etc. versus making the songs you want to make.
There's a culture on boards such as these, where many folks assume everyone else is attuned to the same references as themselves. As a judge I will bring my references to the table and not attempt to get into other peoples' heads because that's just crazy. From someone who was born during the Kennedy years, Mountain is the godfather of metal. Beyond that there's a whole lot of shit, most of which I've never heard. But some of which is awesome, especially after the death of prog rock, when metal remained the most dynamic genre going, both instrumentally and lyrically. I guess my point is if someone "misses the point" then perhaps the music doesn't stand on its own.
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