Nur Ein IX Round Two "Stop (You're Killing Me)"

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Caravan Ray
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Caravan Ray »

Ross wrote:Interesting, I seem to have been the one judge that did not put that song in the bottom 2.
You are a scholar and a gentleman Ross
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by RangerDenni »

bottom line: it's going to be about judge preference either way. If a contestant had a musical "section" of any kind ... and it "goes" from Major to Minor in any way (unspecified), they fulfilled the challenge. Any additional "you know what we meant to put" telepathy would fall under each judge having opinions, rather than how well contestants follow instructions. That's just what instructions mean. And as to individual judge bias .... well, Nur Ein!!! :)
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Rabid Garfunkel »

Well hell, that's a surprise... Nur fuckin' Ein!
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by JonPorobil »

Garf, I'm going to go into more detail on this in my reviews, but basically, I had docked you a few ranks for what I felt was a poor implementation of the challenge. I really like your song, and I was worried that my penalty would keep you out. It pleasantly surprised me to see that everyone else had you near the top of their lists.

Welcome to Round 3.

NUR EIN!!!
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by ken »

Wow. Very surprised to win this round. Thank you to all the judges. I will very much appreciate the immunity this round. I can spend more time with my family and less time trying to figure out how to get them on my song. Good luck everyone!
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by JonPorobil »

Overall comments:

Thank you to everyone who posted a quick explanation of how you handled the challenge. I didn't always agree that what I saw met the parameters, but at least I knew what to listen for. Many of you simply posted a list of the chords you used, which was helpful, but as I described earlier in the thread, you don't get to call a section of your song "minor" just because it has minor chords. I really didn't want to be too much of a stickler about this challenge, but  even with the more lenient interpretation of the challenge, I still wound up disputing it on five entries, or fully a quarter of the ones presented here. Three of those five lost points because of it (the other two were already at or near the bottom of my list, so failing the challenge didn't matter). Many of these songs were close in overall quality, so the challenge wound up mattering a great deal this week. I apologize in advance if you disagree about how I decided whether you fulfilled the challenge or not.

Also, a lot of these entries sounded like they were recorded in a hurry. There were some sloppy mistakes, some playing out of time, some pitchy vocals, and so on. You've got seven days, and I highly encourage you all to make the most of that time. Rehearse your song before you record it, if at all possible. Tweak the things that are too difficult to play, or that just don't "feel right."

Okay, moving on to the actual reviews...


Adam Adamant
The challenge was a double-edged sword for you, Adam. It seems to have coaxed some excellent songwriting out of you, but your vocals sound like you had some trouble shifting from major to minor. I think your mix is better than usual, though. It might be because it's a little more minimal than your usual. 

Balance Lost
Pedro don't need no stinkin' immunity! A really well-done take on the title, with the major-minor shifts handled well and thematically relevant to the lyrics. I think this could have used some kind of b-section, because the "stop" (and, later, "start") hook got a little grating by the end. Still, very good work.

Cavedwellers
Great shuffle-along drums. The transition to minor key actually came across as subtle here, accentuating the brainy jazz feel. Who's David? I'll have to check the lyrics later. Your vocals are getting stronger week over week, which is a great sign. Oh... David Lee Roth? Ok, I can get on board. On my first listen, I was worried that you were coming across overly cloying to do a song about Van Halen in such an unexpected genre, but the more I listen, the more I actually find it charming. Have you heard the song "Van Halen" by Nerf Herder? Ok, I think the guitar solos put me back in your corner.

Chocolate Chips
I was going to complain that this sounds a little too "robotic," but then that abrupt time-shift change hit me. It takes a minute to catch your bearings after that kind of shift, and by the time I re-engage, there's not much of the chorus left. It holds up better on a re-listen. You probably would have benefitted more than most of the others if the judging period were longer. 

Cookie Blue
I'm not sure of the extent to which this successfully engages with the challenge. It sounds to me like you threw a couple of minor chords into your choruses, but to me it never really feels like a transition, then the bridge is in minor, but does it really echo the verse? I listened a couple of times, and I read the chord chart you posted, but it just doesn't sound like the chorus actually switches to minor. I do think that the challenge got you to branch out a bit in terms of your chord choices, so that's nice. Your lyrics are... Well, let's just say you can I have different ideas about what makes song lyrics good, and leave it at that.

DJ Ranger Den
Challenge fulfilled right off the bat. I like how the ambivalence in your lyrics ties into the challenge, shifting between modes dramatically and frequently. Just like last week, you kept it short enough to not outstay its welcome, but I think the rambling structure may have made this less memorable than it could have been. Perhaps bringing it back to "I don't know how I feel" one more time before ending the song might have made it feel more together? I don't really know. On subsequent listens, I really noticed the eerie background drones, which add a lot to the atmosphere while being barely discernable.

Inflatable Vegetables
This is the first song I've heard from this round in which the transition from minor to major might be holding the song back. It's a little awkward to jump into major key for a line and a half, only to resolve back to minor in each of the verses. But the section switches, then switches back, and it repeats, so challenge met. I like the repetition-driven hook, and your lyrics scan perfectly, but I'm not sure I actually care about the story in the lyrics. Great job keeping it around two minutes - any longer and you might have lost me.

Ken Mahru
To be honest, I'm surprised more bands haven't applied the challenge the way you did, by simply modulating part of the chorus into a different key for the bridge. It works really well here, especially with the call-and-response "Stop!" As with many of your songs, this take a bit of time to build a full head of steam, but by the end it's probably my favorite of the fight so far. The electric guitars in the chorus remind me of your "Shreds," which is a very high compliment. I also like the synth you layered in the second verse.

Kraut Kitten
Is it "Kraut Kitten" or "Krautkitten"? Another song that nails the challenge right off the bat. The cacophony of the toy xylophone against the rest of the band doesn't work for me. Sounds like you had a ton of fun with your kids, and the hook is really catchy, but this isn't grabbing me. My girlfriend laughed her head off at this, though, so you got that going for you.

Ligers with Attitude
I'm having trouble making out your lyrics, so thanks for posting them. They're a bit preachy and didactic. Torture is bad; I get it. I'm not sure you met the challenge - that guitar riff changes a bit, but it feels consistently minor-key to me.

Manhattan Glutton
This is nearly Country. I'm impressed. At first, I thought you only met the challenge in a fairly pyrrhic way, by the last line of the chorus. I was pleasantly surprised by the minor-key third verse, which worked really well here. Catchy verses. The vocals should be mixed a bit higher, which is something I never thought I would have to tell you. Also, your bass is a bit too loud. The lyrics are a bit preachy; I'm just not enthused by a song about why smoking is bad. Good work; I can't wait to see what you can bring to the table when you have a full week again.

Merisan
Love that accordion. These lyrics are grounded in concrete images, which keeps them compelling, and they scan with the melody beautifully. You two harmonize beautifully, and I hope you're not sick of hearing it by now. I didn't hear how this met the challenge the first time I heard it, and I'm not sure I would have without your explanation. It definitely counts, though.

Nick Soma
Back to that pop-punk fun stuff. The addition of the cornet and mellophone near the end put us in ska territory, which isn't bad either. I think that onomotopoetic noise in the second verse elevates this in my esteem. If not for the challenge, you'd have been near the top of my list. The only problem is that I don't hear how you addressed the challenge. I read your description of how you say you met the challenge, and I can hear those chord changes you're talking about, but even when you're playing the relative minor chords, the melody you're singing (and therefore the song as a whole) still sounds major-key.

Paco del Stinko
Switching from one major chord to the same minor chord several times in one section is kind of an easy/obvious way to tackle this challenge, but it gets the job done. The drums sound like they're a fraction of a beat late, especially in the part after the bridge, with those sudden fills. The pacing and arrangement work here really well. 

Pigfarmer Jr.
The guitar part is distressingly out of the pocket at various points in the song, like you hadn't quite learned it yet. The same goes for a couple of pitchy vocal lines in the verses. This builds to something pretty interesting and moody, but these little flaws keep taking me out of your song! As for the challenge: I hear a couple of times in your song where you switch from minor to major, but those parts seem like different sections, as opposed to the challenge, which asked you to have "a section" that modulates from major to minor or vice versa - either modulating on a different iteration, or modulating within the section. I think you have to really play rules-lawyer with the definition of "section" to make this match.

Rabid Garfunkel
That distinctive sliding and plucking style is a great way to draw us in. Between the banjo and the frenetic percussion, this song pulls the listener along without stopping for questions. Nonetheless, one question plagued me: with all the spoken-word lyrics, how are we supposed to tell when you've switched from minor to major? Unfortunately, even after reading your explanation of how you met the challenge, I still don't hear the song's modality change at all throughout. I docked you a few ranks, and I really stressed about that, because I'd have hated it if a song as fun as this one got eliminated based on a challenge technicality. Fortunately, now that the results are in, I can see that you made it safely through. This song is a heck of a lot of fun, one of the best I've ever heard from you. I hope you can  turn in material of this caliber with a less daunting challenge.

Ross Durand
Weren't you one of the ones complaining about the interpretation of the challenge? You pretty much did exactly what we were thinking of, with your third verse. Good playing, great singing. I liked some of the imagery in the lyrics, but singing from the point of view of animals felt a little too gimmicky for my taste. I did like that the song shifts to minor as the victim becomes the kid, which sort of raises the stakes.

Tydon Docks
Switching from one major chord to its parallel minor repeatedly wouldn't normally count as switching keys, but you seem more adept than most of your competition when it comes to singing in key through the changes. Good job with that. I'm also impressed at the "oh, what a lovely way to die" tag, which puts an interesting spin on the title. I also like that your flatline managed to be in tune with the song. I like what you're bringing to the table this year, so I guess just keep it up and hope that the coming weeks' challenges aren't over your head again.

Vincent Von F.
The falsetto in the verses might not have been a great choice. This song comes alive when the whispered chorus kicks in. As for the challenge, I have the same complaint about your song that I had about Pigfarmer's song. I can hear shifts from major to minor, but they seem to only happen between sections, which isn't really what the challenge called for. I know there's room for interpretation and all that, but this feels like a miss to me. Sorry. Saved by the missed deadline, eh?
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

I'm pleasantly surprised by how well my song fared, given it was submitted Tuesday night.

C'mon, what else do you write about with a title "Stop (You're killing me)"? I think I picked the best of all the evils with my topic. ;)
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by furrypedro »

Generic wrote:You've got seven days, and I highly encourage you all to make the most of that time.
I really appreciate your comments. I wish I had more time to redo my vocal takes and get the melody right (pretty much all of mine were first takes), and I'm honestly surprised (in a good way) that this didn't get slated a little more.

I don't know about anybody else, but my writing cycle tends to go like this:
Monday - Wednesday: Try and think of a concept around which to base the lyrics, and maybe fiddle about with an instrument to get a hook going.
Thursday - Friday: Get a second section and write all the lyrics
Saturday: Recover from hangover
Sunday: Do all the recording
(and this is assuming it goes according to plan)

I will do the ol' listening-to-a-mix-on-as-many-different-stereos-as-possible before submitting to get rid of any obviously horrendous errors, but due to work, my various other commitments and not wanting to use shitty ideas it pretty much always gets tight on Sunday and there's never as much time as I think I'm going to have or would like to have. I suppose there's a large element of trying to make those judgement calls about what is a good/bad idea during the writing process rather than recording and having to go back and correct things. I could discuss this kind of stuff forever...but I should go and write my song.

Thanks again for the feedback, this will be a big help.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

My writing style this year has been:
Sunday night/Monday: start thinking, get a concept/hook if possible
Tuesday: Record some shit
Wednesday: Marinate and re-record/record more shit. Song structure done.
Thursday: Get final instrument recordings, start vocals
Friday: Redo vocal takes
Saturday/Sunday: Marinate and mix
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Ross »

Mothers day out of town weekend, absolutely do not have seven days.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by JonPorobil »

Manhattan Glutton wrote:My writing style this year has been:
Sunday night/Monday: start thinking, get a concept/hook if possible
Tuesday: Record some shit
Wednesday: Marinate and re-record/record more shit. Song structure done.
Thursday: Get final instrument recordings, start vocals
Friday: Redo vocal takes
Saturday/Sunday: Marinate and mix
It was really interesting to see the manner in which a compressed time frame changed the finished product. Fewer doubled tracks than usual, a drier mix overall, some levels slightly out of whack, but still recognizably MG and still overall really good. It tells us a lot about your process and priorities.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by chocolatechips »

After entering "Drunk Season" as Ken & Chips (with Ken doing vocals/lyrics for my instrumental track) a few Song Fights ago it was really cool to see Ken & Chips at #1 and #2 this week - I was very pleasantly surprised to see how well my track was received by the judges ... I thought it was pretty good but I'm never sure how people are going to respond.

I really liked that challenge, the musically focused ones are by far my favorites ... I'm hoping to make it to another one.

To the seven days thing: I typically can't work on these tracks at all Friday or Saturday (out of town) so that leaves five days ... and even then I normally don't really start working on it until Wednesday (I sort of let ideas simmer Monday & Tuesday)

As of right now for Round Three I've got a basic lyrics concept with a few specific phrases as possibilities, and an idea for (what I think is) an interesting chord pattern for one part. Nothing truly written yet and definitely nothing recorded. Hoping to get a good start on it tonight!
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by JonPorobil »

Ross wrote:Mothers day out of town weekend, absolutely do not have seven days.
chocolatechips wrote: To the seven days thing: I typically can't work on these tracks at all Friday or Saturday (out of town) so that leaves five days ... and even then I normally don't really start working on it until Wednesday (I sort of let ideas simmer Monday & Tuesday)
I obviously didn't mean that you should spend 168 hours straight doing nothing but working on your song. Everyone has real-life commitments that take precedence over Nur Ein writing/recording time, and including your non-songwriting activities is a crucial component of your time management. The top-tier songs are usually the ones by people who took advantage of the time given to really fine-tune and polish their material (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphor) before turning it in.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Lunkhead »

Generic wrote:
Ross wrote:The top-tier songs are usually the ones by people who took advantage of the time given to really fine-tune and polish their material (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphor) before turning it in.
LOL Yeah, good one. :P
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Manhattan Glutton »

furrypedro wrote:I will do the ol' listening-to-a-mix-on-as-many-different-stereos-as-possible before submitting
As you know, I generally really almost always like your songs. My biggest complaint has been your mastering - everything's usually super loud and harsh. Which, yes, is different from mixing, but I find it surprising given the quote above.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Rabid Garfunkel »

As I'm now sniffing at the backsides of the top-tier, perhaps my process will help relax some of y'all:

Sunday: Title! Yeah! Challenge… urgh. Well, let's wait for whomever pokes the bear to see what the judges' finesses are.
Monday morning, in shower: Oh my god, that's the stupidest line ever. But it's stuck in my head, so I'd better write it down.
Monday evening: Well, these instruments might work…
Tuesday: Noodle. Lay down scratch phrases.
Wednesday: WTF was I thinking?!? Damnit.
Thursday morning, shower: Expand on Monday's stupid line. It goes somewhere that can only be described as "Huh?"
Friday: Fuck it, get into the story of the lyrical sketch. Scribble scribble.
Saturday: Read a couple of books, notepad in sight at all times. Don't want to touch the computer, it's the weekend, damnit.
Sunday: Panicky hermit time. Rehash instrument choice and scratch phrases. Fail, succeed, fail, accept. Record, record, record. Mix mix mix.

Somehow it works. Until it doesn't, heh.
Manhattan Glutton wrote:
furrypedro wrote:I will do the ol' listening-to-a-mix-on-as-many-different-stereos-as-possible before submitting
As you know, I generally really almost always like your songs. My biggest complaint has been your mastering - everything's usually super loud and harsh. Which, yes, is different from mixing, but I find it surprising given the quote above.
A stereo's a stereo's a stereo. Each receiver has too much of its own inherent color. But if I didn't wait until the last minute, I'd do it too. ;)
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Generic wrote: Pigfarmer Jr.
The guitar part is distressingly out of the pocket at various points in the song, like you hadn't quite learned it yet. The same goes for a couple of pitchy vocal lines in the verses. This builds to something pretty interesting and moody, but these little flaws keep taking me out of your song! As for the challenge: I hear a couple of times in your song where you switch from minor to major, but those parts seem like different sections, as opposed to the challenge, which asked you to have "a section" that modulates from major to minor or vice versa - either modulating on a different iteration, or modulating within the section. I think you have to really play rules-lawyer with the definition of "section" to make this match.
Thanks for the review. Would you believe it's the drums that are out of time. Well, it is. Don't ask me how, but I had to splice and nudge and tweak the drum track to make it fit in a few places. No idea how/why it got that way but I was having trouble from the get go. Fake drums suck is all I can say. As for the challenge, yeah, I get ya.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Ligers With Attitude »

I definitely deserve to be eliminated this round because my vocals were inaudible unless you wore headphones, and my main recurring riff came from a band I wished to CHANNEL but not steal from outright. (Subconscious theft.) However. To say "we get it, torture is bad", you may as well say "We get it, Metallica, having your face blown off as well as your arms and legs is bad." I am grateful to not have to record a medieval sea shanty for round three about the Children's Crusade while my wife plays recorder, and to not have to listen to any of the children's music that is surely in store for round three, and... you can all go fuck yourselves. JK. But seriously, I promise to never be back and to stymie Ben's every effort to convince people that this is a cool thing to do. NUR EIN!
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Caravan Ray »

Generic wrote: Tydon Docks
Switching from one major chord to its parallel minor repeatedly wouldn't normally count as switching keys
Oh...I was thinking that I had done the challenge exactly as the judges wanted. Oh well. I assume you mean I fulfilled the challenge - just not very well? If I didn't actually fulfil it - I hope it is at least appreciated that I was being fair dinkum about it, and possibly still didn't get it.

Whatever - I did enjoy the challenge and learned a little bit from it. I grabbed my guitar and just played the Am progression and the A progression and realised they seemed to fit together - and went from there. It was a very unusual way to start a song (for me). So I appreciate that little prod to try something different.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by BenKrieger »

Ligers With Attitude wrote:stymie Ben's every effort to convince people that this is a cool thing to do.
What can I say? I'm more of a JK artist than a serious one. Nur Ein!
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Ross »

Generic wrote: Ross Durand
Weren't you one of the ones complaining about the interpretation of the challenge? You pretty much did exactly what we were thinking of, with your third verse.
Never complained. Offered an alternative interpretation, asked for clarification. Clarification helped.
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Paco Del Stinko
Hot for Teacher
Posts: 3542
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:20 am
Instruments: Basic rock, at a basic level.
Recording Method: Roland 2480
Submitting as: Paco del Stinko
Location: Massachusetts. God save the Commonwealth!

Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Two

Post by Paco Del Stinko »

Chocolate Chimps wrote:Review
Never a need to apologize. I hear what yer sayin', too. Your song this round, however, is easily my favorite from you at SF!. Good work.

Regarding the time thing: The luxury of two extra days pays off for some, eh? I 'll look at the title, think about things a bit, but don't put anything together until it gets near the deadline. I wrote some lyrics yesterday, strummed a guitar for 10 minutes, and that's all I have.

I understand and agree with Jon's view. But the year that I won, I did it without spending a lot of time on the songs. I work full time, and was actually on a vacation for part of a round, watching results and titles on my girlfriend's funny phone ('smart phone' to you people) while in Florida. Not advocating less time on songs, just sayin'. Doesn't mean I think that I'm better than anyone, and believe me, I know I'm not.



Next year: Back to the five days, please. The world doesn't revolve around MG. It revolves around Bono. Duh!
Bringin' the stink since 2006.
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