The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Manhattan Glutton wrote:You're allowed your opinion - I'm merely floating the friendly suggestion of dropping the pretense that it has anything to do with lyrics. You like a song or you don't like a song, something clicks or doesn't, who cares. Jon apparently has a different opinion than you.

But to get upset about him being overly-analytical, when...

frankie big face wrote:there are a few lyrics things there that bother me, at least when I'm listening to analytically

Who said I was upset?

I like how you're quoting me out of context about a song I SAID I LIKED. And I even went so far to say WHEN I'M LISTENING ANALYTICALLY. So you're making my point. I would never rank your song low because I didn't understand the meaning behind it. If it had poor lyrics, whether literal or obtuse, I probably would. But not if it had an overwhelmingly lovely melody (although that would be a shameful combination) or a killer hook or it just made me want to dance. We don't disagree as much as you seem to want us to.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:You like a song or you don't like a song, something clicks or doesn't, who cares.

Also, this is an incredibly narrow viewpoint. I doubt you would feel this way about an app you created. If I said "it either works or it doesn't - who cares if it has any aesthetic value or whether the code is elegant or whatever." Just because you feel this way about music doesn't mean the rest of the world does.

Now I think about it, something being simply either 'good' or 'bad' is nonsensical and reductivist. Also, reviews would be shockingly boring. 'like it'/'don't like it' for 15 songs? Also the whole point of Nur Ein would be invalidated. 1 point for 'good', 0 point for 'bad'? I think you'd find the competition would grind to a halt over draws.

I love the debates that Nur Ein sometimes sparks, but I hate the strawmen. Are we really trying to defend the idea that there are relative degrees to which we enjoy various pieces of music?

Anyway, Frank, I hope you realize that judging practically requires "listening analytically." And then, as a consequence, I write reviews that quibble relatively minor points about songs I actually liked, because if I didn't do that then one-third of my reviews any given week would say "I liked it" and nothing else. You and Erik have been turning in solid work this year, and I especially adored your solo entry this week.

Granted, I have a bias against obtuse lyrics. I know you were being snarky, but Radiohead was actually a good example. I appreciate Radiohead on a musical level, but many of their songs take a long time to really grow on me (longer than the judging period of a Nur Ein round, sadly). And I haven't really cottoned to anything of theirs since Hail to the Thief back in 2003. Unless you count Thom's solo album, which I liked.

(Also, "I Am the Walrus" is one of my favorite Beatles songs, but I think it's a bad example for your point, because its lyrics are such overt surrealism.)

I'm wrong. My bad!

Also, I wasn't trying to argue that there is a binary good/bad. I was arguing that, sometimes, you might gloss over the lyrics because you like other things about the song, and trying to point out how funny it is that we care about the lyrics sometimes and not others. Generally speaking, I feel that an undue focus on lyrics means that the artist probably failed to entertain in other ways or make a cohesive product.

I can't disagree with that - if, when I'm reviewing, just for example, I start banging on about your lyric, good or bad, it's probably a sign the music didn't grab me (at least, as much to have anything to say, good or bad) - but also vice versa.

I mean, one of my favourite songs of all time (no lie) is 'Sugar Sugar' - perfect pop song, with, what, three lines of wordage?

Especially for us Brits, today's election result, good or bad depending on your personal political leanings, reflects the basic truth that there's no such thing as objectivity. We are engaged in a subjective existence. Man. Or some such.

j$

Frank, we all know it was out of context and unfair. However, that was comedy gold. One of the best laughs I've had coming from the boards.

cheers to Manhattan Glutton!

Undue focus is fun! Look at the judges on cooking shows: "There's a bit too much sear on these scallops. I would have liked a little more vinegar in the dressing. The presentation was beautiful, but ..."

So thanks for the reviews and judging!

Manhattan Glutton wrote:I'm wrong. My bad!

Finally!

It's comforting to know there's always a place I can go and argue with people. This whole thing has strayed so far from my original (still intact) feelings about whatever my point is/was but, yes Glen, absolutely, this is more entertaining.