What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Discuss upcoming, current, and previous song fights.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Caravan Ray » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:28 am

The Weakest Suit wrote:
with respect, i don't think that you can still call it your song when someone creates an entirely different melody and arrangement for it. i don't know exactly what i would call it though. it wouldn't be a cover because that relies on the original form of the song to provide a base for the reinterpretation. the whole idea just rubs me the wrong way. i think i may just be afraid that the lyricburgler's version of the song would be better than my own. put that in your pipe and quote it.
With respect, who gives a shit?


Just guessing, but I think the Lyricburglar probably choses his victims very carefully so that issues like that won't actually arise. Eric obviously agrees. And I would be surprised if other "victims" like Jeff and Nigel (Spoons) would likewise have a problem with it.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Caravan Ray » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:43 am

Billy's Little Trip wrote:Good point TWS. I wonder about this a bit. Example, My Interesting Times song was performed by Paco and myself, but the lyrics were written by Niveous. I entered it as BLT featuring Paco. Then in the lyrics section mentioned lyrics by Niveous. I'm never quite sure of the protocol. Also, notice how I said "my" Interesting Times song? Why do I do that when it's really our song?
You do that because you are a bastard.

I have actually entered my cover version of Heuristics Inc "Fight The Sea" in the Australian Songwriters Association annual song competition (with Bill's permission of course, as a joint composition - because I wrote new music for his lyrics). the best bit is - because we didn't get past the first round - I can blame my failure on Bill! It's win-win!.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by MC Eric B » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:42 am

The Weakest Suit - I feel the opposite. I hope LyricBurgler's version will be better than mine, because I consider myself a very good lyricist, and I think am good at creating the structure of the song (I hear the whole thing in my head and it sounds good), but I am a very bad at executing it, in that I am a bad singer and bad at playing music, so my songs usually don't live up to their full potential when I do them myself. It is a shame to let a great talent like mine go to waste, so I am happy when a good singer/musician like Mr. Burgler uses something I wrote to bring enjoyment to the world.

- Eric

=============================================
The Weakest Suit wrote: i think i may just be afraid that the lyricburgler's version of the song would be better than my own. put that in your pipe and quote it.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by The Weakest Suit » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:57 am

MC Eric B wrote:The Weakest Suit - I feel the opposite. I hope LyricBurgler's version will be better than mine, because I consider myself a very good lyricist, and I think am good at creating the structure of the song (I hear the whole thing in my head and it sounds good), but I am a very bad at executing it, in that I am a bad singer and bad at playing music, so my songs usually don't live up to their full potential when I do them myself. It is a shame to let a great talent like mine go to waste, so I am happy when a good singer/musician like Mr. Burgler uses something I wrote to bring enjoyment to the world.

- Eric
coming up with lyrics is the hardest part for me.
i don't know how you write coherent lyrics so fast.
my songs usually start out singing a melody with an idea for the theme of the song in my head. the nonsense lyrics i start out singing get refined as i work out the melody and idea of the song. sometimes part of the nonsense lyrics stay. not exactly "the movement you need is on your shoulder" quality, but, you know...
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Billy's Little Trip » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:24 am

Caravan Ray wrote:
Billy's Little Trip wrote:Good point TWS. I wonder about this a bit. Example, My Interesting Times song was performed by Paco and myself, but the lyrics were written by Niveous. I entered it as BLT featuring Paco. Then in the lyrics section mentioned lyrics by Niveous. I'm never quite sure of the protocol. Also, notice how I said "my" Interesting Times song? Why do I do that when it's really our song?
You do that because you are a bastard.
Well, unintentionally, yes. Maybe that can be our band name when I do collabs?
The Unintentional Bastards

edit: Oh wait, I just remembered our song was William L Tripowtski and the Tripowtski Players :P
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by bz£ » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:42 pm

MC Eric B wrote:It is a shame to let a great talent like mine go to waste
This is exactly how I feel! About me, though.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Billy's Little Trip » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:58 pm

bz£ wrote:
MC Eric B wrote:It is a shame to let a great talent like mine go to waste
This is exactly how I feel! About me, though.
Do I smell a genius collab of which the likes this world has never experienced?
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Rone Rivendale » Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:02 pm

MC Eric B wrote:The Weakest Suit - because I consider myself a very good lyricist, and I think am good at creating the structure of the song (I hear the whole thing in my head and it sounds good), but I am a very bad at executing it, in that I am a bad singer and bad at playing music, so my songs usually don't live up to their full potential when I do them myself. It is a shame to let a great talent like mine go to waste
I am in the same boat. Perhaps I should post lyrics for some of these songs, even if I don't plan to enter. *rubs chin* ;)
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Billy's Little Trip » Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:04 pm

Rone Rivendale wrote:
MC Eric B wrote:The Weakest Suit - because I consider myself a very good lyricist, and I think am good at creating the structure of the song (I hear the whole thing in my head and it sounds good), but I am a very bad at executing it, in that I am a bad singer and bad at playing music, so my songs usually don't live up to their full potential when I do them myself. It is a shame to let a great talent like mine go to waste
I am in the same boat. Perhaps I should post lyrics for some of these songs, even if I don't plan to enter. *rubs chin* ;)
Here ya go for future use. Image
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Ross » Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:25 pm

I think a version by the Lyric Burgler is no-one's song. Since it is only the lyrics, it is clearly not the original authors' song, and since the lyric burgler stole the lyrics, it's clearly not their song either.

I always enjoying hearing both songs some week when the lyric burgler steals - very entertaining!
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by fluffy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:09 pm

Once upon a time, song recordings had three sets of credits: lyrics, music, and performance.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Lord of Oats » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:18 pm

and production
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by fluffy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:23 pm

Eh, that's part of the performance/recording. You can't really copyright the production of a song separately from the recording/performance of it.

My point is just that the lyrics are part of the song and the lyric author must be credited as such. Just like if you do a cover of a Beatles song you can't claim it as your own. I think this whole "philosophical" issue is just a weaksauce way of disclaiming responsibility for giving credit where credit's due.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Ross » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:58 pm

fluffy wrote:Once upon a time, song recordings had three sets of credits: lyrics, music, and performance.
For instance?

And this applies to songfight how? Serious question.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by fluffy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:09 pm

For instance, a good amount of the music written in the 20th century. Especially the manufactured pop (look at the song credits for quite a few of Britney Spears' hits, for example). Also, it's pretty common in, say, musicals - consider Howard Ashman and Alan Menken who were the lyrics+music team behind a lot of Disney movies in the 90s as well as plenty of other musicals before that (such as the musical version of Little Shop of Horrors).

And, it relates to Song Fight in the precise context of this very discussion. Lyrics are part of a song. Music is part of a song. Performance is part of a song. It's great that most songs here have lyrics, music, and performance by the same person (or small group of people), BUT this thread has a lot of people hemming and hawing about how lyricburglars' songs "aren't really lyricburglar's/the original lyric author's" because it's "not the same song." But the fact is that lyricburglar's target wrote the lyrics, which is part of the song. It doesn't belong to nobody, it belongs to several people.

A song is not just a single monolithic thing that completely ceases to exist when one part of it is taken out of context.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Ross » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:31 pm

Of course I get the lyrics by/music by part - but those people all chose to have one another as partners - didn't they? When lyric burgler, whom I enjoy, posts a song by lyric burgler, whether the lyricist cares that their lyrics were burgled or not, it was not a conscious choice to have those two elements combined.

Songfight's current system does not allow us to submit with music, lyrics and performance separately credited unless you go through BLT's song and dance. This results in various collabs having different bandnames, etc... So it seems to me that the conversation is not entirely irrelevant. I am NOT suggesting songfight change the way it credits songs - I myself have had to deal with this - if someone contributes a guitar solo to my song do I credit them as Ross Durand featuring blank, what does a guitar solo matter, and yet, if that solo is good enough to push someone to vote for my song instead of not vote for it, it seems appropriate to credit them.

BTW - I don't really care all that much about this - but I do think it is an interesting conversation, and I care about that.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by fluffy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:42 pm

Right, I wasn't saying that Song Fight itself needs to change the way it credits songs, I was just saying that using someone else's lyrics for your own song doesn't make it no longer their song. These are the two posts I was specifically responding to:
The Weakest Suit wrote:with respect, i don't think that you can still call it your song when someone creates an entirely different melody and arrangement for it. i don't know exactly what i would call it though. it wouldn't be a cover because that relies on the original form of the song to provide a base for the reinterpretation. the whole idea just rubs me the wrong way. i think i may just be afraid that the lyricburgler's version of the song would be better than my own. put that in your pipe and quote it.
Ross wrote:I think a version by the Lyric Burgler is no-one's song. Since it is only the lyrics, it is clearly not the original authors' song, and since the lyric burgler stole the lyrics, it's clearly not their song either.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Caravan Ray » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:48 am

Apparently, Richard Rogers was always stealing Oscar Hammerstein's shopping lists and tax returns and such and putting them to music when Oscar wasn't watching. Drove Oscar mad.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by HeuristicsInc » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:44 am

Caravan Ray wrote: I have actually entered my cover version of Heuristics Inc "Fight The Sea" in the Australian Songwriters Association annual song competition (with Bill's permission of course, as a joint composition - because I wrote new music for his lyrics). the best bit is - because we didn't get past the first round - I can blame my failure on Bill! It's win-win!.
Hmm, well, I'm sure it wasn't your excellent arrangement and singing, because those were stellar... must have been my overly geeky lyrics about things that no normal person would sing about... or maybe they were embarrassed that I mentioned groins.
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Ross » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:26 am

Caravan Ray wrote:Apparently, Richard Rogers was always stealing Oscar Hammerstein's shopping lists and tax returns and such and putting them to music when Oscar wasn't watching. Drove Oscar mad.
So were those Richard's songs or Oscar's songs?
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by fluffy » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:28 am

It'd be both of theirs. Hooray for joint ownership. (BLT if you make a marijuana joke I will kill you.)
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Re: What's all that yelling? (Calm Down PreFight)

Post by Ross » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:44 am

fluffy wrote:It'd be both of theirs. Hooray for joint ownership. (BLT if you make a marijuana joke I will kill you.)
My point exactly - so I agree that when MC Eric B hears a song by Lyric Burgler using words by MC Eric B, MC Eric B is not hearing another version of "his" song, and neither is it a lyric Burgler song - it belongs to both of them, neither can claim it on their own.
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