Tuning Vocals in Post

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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Pigfarmer's introduction to modes:

Play the C Major scale. Play the exact same scale but start on the D and end an octave higher. Then again on the E etc., . Those are modes. Yes, it's less than an ideal practical explanation, but it might get you to internalize the idea. Each mode is just a different pattern of steps and half steps.

I think there was a Nur Ein (or possibly Spintunes) challenge where you had to use a mode... (or maybe just a weekly FAWM challenge, come to think of it?) *shrug*
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by jb »

In school we learned modes in terms of the solfeggio syllables. That's "do re mi fa sol la ti do". Each syllable has a relationship to the next. For example, between do and re is a whole step and between mi and fa is a half step. (ti and do are a half step apart).

If you start on middle C, you can sing through the modes like this:

Code: Select all

Ionian (major)
do re mi fa sol la ti do
C  D  E  F  G   A  B  C
(intervals: Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Whole - Half)

Dorian
re mi fa sol la ti do
C  D  Eb F   G  A  Bb
(intervals: Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole)

Phrygian
mi fa sol la ti do re
C  Db Eb  F  G  Ab Bb
(intervals: Half - Whole - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole)

Lydian
fa sol la ti do re mi
C  D   E  F  Gb Ab Bb
(intervals: Whole - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Half)

Mixolydian
sol la ti do re mi fa
C   D  E  F  G  A  Bb
(intervals: Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole)

Aeolian (minor)
la ti do re mi fa sol
C  D  Eb F  G  Ab Bb
(intervals: Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole)

Locrian
ti do re mi fa sol la
C  Db Eb F  Gb Ab  Bb
(intervals: Half - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Whole)
I *think* I got those right...

Anyway, "Candle in the Wind" is in Mixolydian. Enjoy.

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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by lichenthroat »

Thanks, JB and Pigfarmer, for the explanations. It seems like you're saying slightly different things, though. I understand JB to mean "start on the same note (C) and move up using differing patterns (depending on what mode is chosen) of whole and half steps." I understand Pigfarmer to mean "start on different notes (depending on what mode is chosen) and move up using the usual pattern of whole and half steps between notes of different letters."

My previous understanding was consistent with Pigfarmer's explanation, so it was always confusing how the mode actually affected anything other than playing the scale itself; it seemed like writing a song, in which the notes don't necessarily proceed in order, wouldn't really be affected by the mode, since the scale (as represented by the key signature) still contains the same notes in every mode. I guess I'm not sure if you guys are really saying the same thing, and I'm confused, or if you genuinely disagree.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Naw, it's the same thing. So in my example we are changing keys. In JB's example you are staying in the same key. If you take the C major scale and start on D and end an octave higher you are playing the Dorian mode in the key of D. If you took that same pattern and started on C (JB's second example) you would be playing the Dorian mode in the key of C. Not sure if I'm explaining it very well, but simply put: in my example you are changing keys for each mode. In JB's you are staying in the same key (C). Clear as mud?
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by Lunkhead »

Can we plz stay on topic here? Maybe start a new thread to discuss modes?
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by jast »

Update: I spent some more time with Melodyne on the same song I mentioned before. Turns out that the note detection isn't the problem so much, it's that Melodyne (and every other tool I know) doesn't always deal with sliding pitch changes in a productive way and can end up missing note transitions, or put them in the wrong place. Quite understandable, of course, given how much of that is artistic license and such.

If I do a first pass manually optimizing the note splits (including some within-note splits if the modulation is particularly chaotic), after that Melodyne does a pretty solid job overall even in its automatic mode, with me needing to finetune maybe 10% of the notes, plus doing manual changes to some of the notes' modulation, attack and pitch drift to tighten up some of the transitions but keeping it natural-sounding. I spent about two hours treating a song of mine and ended up with something that checks all the boxes for commercial standards without sounding processed at all (in the mix at least).

I'll try and upload a demo at some point.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by jast »

So here's my original Song Fight submission: http://www.songfight.org/music/ocean_of ... er_ool.mp3
And here's the new one where I used Melodyne (and did some mix tuning in the past year or so): http://static.music-jk.net/attic/ool_edit.mp3
The untreated vocals: http://static.music-jk.net/attic/ool_leadvox_dry.mp3 (actual vocals start around 0:15 but fast forwarding doesn't work well in VLC for some reason)

The Melodyne version sounds pretty good for the most part. I originally wanted to reduce the vibrato on the last note a little, but Melodyne's pitch detection was a tiny bit off and so every attempt to reduce it actually just screwed it up, so I ended up keeping it untreated.

(Edit: fixed a broken link)
Last edited by jast on Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

That does sound better and I didn't hear any obvious tuning spots. I remember this fight, too..
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by jast »

To be fair, in the two hours I spent on it I probably could have recorded better vocals, too. I have the luxury of being able to go back and forth between recording and engineering, unlike most "serious" productions.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by HeuristicsInc »

Just dropping in here to say that I use Melodyne too, although I have to figure out how to download it on the new computer.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by owl »

Resurrecting this thread because I'm getting various Cyber Monday deal emails for stuff like Melodyne or Pitchmap or Waves Tune and am wondering what the benefit is to the "world-class" versions of this type of software over the free options.

I use the free ReaTune plugin in Reaper sometimes, but I have some issues with it--
- sometimes it doesn't seem to work as expected--I'll tune a note to the pitch I want and it still sounds off to me despite the plugin telling me it's been corrected to the proper note (maybe something to do with overtones or harmonics...?)
- it seems to leave weird, warbly artifacts on some transients; "s" is a particularly bad one. So on lead vocals, I try to only apply it manually to vowels if possible
- I can't nudge timing at all without tediously chopping up the waveforms

note: I don't think I've ever tried it on vocals with vibrato or pitch slides.

What do the paid versions of this type of software do that the free one does not? If I bought one of these, would this just be a waste of money or is there a significant benefit over free options?

I'm not interested in spending hundreds of dollars, so it would have to be one of the cheaper options. (I know the $$$ edition of Melodyne lets you do cool polyphonic things like pull out one note from a chord to tune it...)
I can also usually hit what I'm aiming for, more or less, so it would mainly be for small adjustments here and there.
On the one hand, I think my vocals are usually at the point where I don't think I need it, if I notice I'm out of tune I can generally get it close enough with another take or two, but on the other hand, I can get picky and want everything to be just so on vox, and it's satisfying when I can tweak the tuning to fix stuff that's just a little bit off but I like the take otherwise.

Now that I'm writing this out, I think I probably already know the answer to this for me personally (i.e. "don't spend money, just do a few extra takes to comp in") but I'm still curious to hear what people think about the free vs paid versions of this type of software. (ReaTune in particular?)
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by jast »

ReaTune is pretty aggravating to use IMO. It's difficult to "aim" corrections, and its pitch detection is pretty bad, at least on my vocals.

The big benefit in all of the paid options (except the dumbed down versions of Auto-Tune) is that you can adjust the detection results after the fact - just splitting the notes differently makes a huge difference, and lets you avoid messing up sibilants or lets you override how the plugin thinks a pitch slide should be split up. Also they track the intonation within the same note, with the more advanced versions letting you override that. This is pretty much impossible in ReaTune, the best you could do in REAPER is manually automating the item's pitch adjustment or something - which is a lot of work. I've tried.

Waves Tune is a great affordable option (and you can try a demo version), but it only supports pitch correction, not timing correction.
Melodyne Essential seems to allow both, but it's fairly limited (you can only adjust pitch centers, not the intonation curve) - Melodyne Assistant is where the fun starts (regular price around $250, with the current deals you can get Essential for ~$50 and the upgrade to Assistant for ~$50, so about $100 total).
Auto-Tune Access doesn't allow any editing at all from what I can tell, just locking in a scale and having it do its magic. I don't think that kind of thing is worth paying money for.

Here's the lowdown of the most important editing techniques: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiW6XVFeFgo (this is for Melodyne but the same would apply to any competitor that offers the same tools). The really important bit is the one starting around 3:45. (I'm not sure whether you can do this in Essential, though - the website is a bit ambiguous on that.)
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by vowlvom »

I just upgraded from Melodyne Essential to Assistant in the most recent sale, but haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet. I was pretty impressed with Essential as an entry-level product though. Especially since they released the VST3 version which automatically analyses the audio rather than having to play the whole thing through once first. I only tried ReaTune a couple of times before giving up on it - I'm sure you can achieve some reasonable results with some effort but it didn't seem to make things easy. And I need easy!

In general though, I only use pitch-correction sparingly. Some of my favourite singers have pitchy moments and I mostly like things to stay on the imperfect side, within reason.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by jb »

First Argument In Favor:
Let's say you have a long note and you go slightly out of tune the longer you hold it. Like how Bill Withers goes a little flat as the note goes on in "Lovely Day". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEeaS6fuUoA

I'd say that particular Bill Withers performance is really sweet, and I wouldn't change a thing-- except that @$%! note in the chorus. Place pitch correction on that vocal and set it to pretty slow and gentle, and it'll nudge that vocal back in line.

So what? Well, I mean, number one you don't release a track that drives a certain JB up the wall. But what if you never have long notes because you always go out of tune the second time through the chorus? Now you can have long notes.

Second Argument In Favor:
Backing vocals sound reeeeeally good when they are pitch corrected to be in perfect harmony. And who wants to do take after take to get that "oooooooh" exactly on pitch when you don't have to? Life's too short.

Third Argument In Favor:
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by grumpymike »

I hate hate hate modern Glee-like vocals that take out all the timbre. At the same time, I don’t like pitchy singing. Tuning is perfectly fine if you aren’t overdoing it... put the vox mostly on pitch but don’t “iron out” all the “wrinkles” in Melodyne. Aim for clean takes that can be pitch manipulated cleanly without artifacts.

Lately, I learned about formant tuning. It’s another great way to save takes with great energy but with a little too much nasal.

@jast @owl Until I recently got Melodyne, I used ReaPitch in manual mode as a per-item FX so that the manual drawing moved with the item. Otherwise if you do manual in track FX the timing gets screwed up. I didn’t use it too aggressively (cranked parameters) so IMO it worked out fine. It will distort T and S occasionally so just don’t sing those off-pitch. :p Melodyne is fantastic but it might end up with less natural results because it’s just too tempting.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by owl »

OK, well, I had made up my mind about not buying anything but now I'm tempted again. Thanks for all the input!
jast wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:28 am
ReaTune is pretty aggravating to use IMO. It's difficult to "aim" corrections, and its pitch detection is pretty bad, at least on my vocals.

The big benefit in all of the paid options (except the dumbed down versions of Auto-Tune) is that you can adjust the detection results after the fact - just splitting the notes differently makes a huge difference, and lets you avoid messing up sibilants or lets you override how the plugin thinks a pitch slide should be split up. Also they track the intonation within the same note, with the more advanced versions letting you override that. This is pretty much impossible in ReaTune, the best you could do in REAPER is manually automating the item's pitch adjustment or something - which is a lot of work. I've tried.

Here's the lowdown of the most important editing techniques: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiW6XVFeFgo (this is for Melodyne but the same would apply to any competitor that offers the same tools). The really important bit is the one starting around 3:45. (I'm not sure whether you can do this in Essential, though - the website is a bit ambiguous on that.)
Thanks for linking the video, that + your answer are super helpful.
I haven't found any big problems with the pitch detection like octave jumps etc, but agree it can be hard to aim corrections, and I wonder if maybe the imperfect detection to start with is causing some of the artifacts that were bothering me or the "untunable" notes that seem resistant to being fixed.
vowlvom wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:48 am
I just upgraded from Melodyne Essential to Assistant in the most recent sale, but haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet. I was pretty impressed with Essential as an entry-level product though. Especially since they released the VST3 version which automatically analyses the audio rather than having to play the whole thing through once first. I only tried ReaTune a couple of times before giving up on it - I'm sure you can achieve some reasonable results with some effort but it didn't seem to make things easy. And I need easy!

In general though, I only use pitch-correction sparingly. Some of my favourite singers have pitchy moments and I mostly like things to stay on the imperfect side, within reason.
What are the biggest differences between Essential and Assistant? Also you know my untuned vocals and inclinations for how much I want to tune things better than anyone, would you recommend buying, say, Melodyne Essential to me?
grumpymike wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:19 am
@jast @owl Until I recently got Melodyne, I used ReaPitch in manual mode as a per-item FX so that the manual drawing moved with the item. Otherwise if you do manual in track FX the timing gets screwed up. I didn’t use it too aggressively (cranked parameters) so IMO it worked out fine. It will distort T and S occasionally so just don’t sing those off-pitch. :p Melodyne is fantastic but it might end up with less natural results because it’s just too tempting.
Why ReaPitch and not ReaTune? I'm not sure I understand why the timing gets screwed up either (you mean just if you're moving an item around?)
jb wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:46 am
First Argument In Favor:
Let's say you have a long note and you go slightly out of tune the longer you hold it. Like how Bill Withers goes a little flat as the note goes on in "Lovely Day". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEeaS6fuUoA

I'd say that particular Bill Withers performance is really sweet, and I wouldn't change a thing-- except that @$%! note in the chorus. Place pitch correction on that vocal and set it to pretty slow and gentle, and it'll nudge that vocal back in line.

So what? Well, I mean, number one you don't release a track that drives a certain JB up the wall. But what if you never have long notes because you always go out of tune the second time through the chorus? Now you can have long notes.

Second Argument In Favor:
Backing vocals sound reeeeeally good when they are pitch corrected to be in perfect harmony. And who wants to do take after take to get that "oooooooh" exactly on pitch when you don't have to? Life's too short.

Third Argument In Favor:
Song Fight! Where you seldom have time to do it right. Get closer, faster, through the magic of technology!
Agreed on all of these, but I've been doing all of the above (to varying degrees of success) using ReaTune so far.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by ujnhunter »

Yeah, out of all of those options. Melodyne is the best in my opinion. Sure you can go cheap with Waves Tune for $29, but for $20 more... you'll have software that is much better (again... in my opinion) with the ability to "make it even better" through upgrades in the future if you decide to go from Essential to Assistant for instance... which I believe I will try to do myself for the $49 upgrade price by the end of December. $49 for Melodyne Essential is really great and totally worth it, even if you just want to edit some background vocals.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by Lunkhead »

If you're potentially going to spend $100 just on autotune, maybe you should consider buying a commercial DAW that has that functionality built in? If you have a Mac, Logic Pro X is only $199. If you have a PC, there are many options. I personally use Cubase, and you can get versions of that for $99 or $302. Both of those options would come with many $100s worth of additional plugins and virtual instruments etc. etc. I know for certain those two DAWs have Melodyne-like features built in.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by vowlvom »

owl wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:27 am
What are the biggest differences between Essential and Assistant? Also you know my untuned vocals and inclinations for how much I want to tune things better than anyone, would you recommend buying, say, Melodyne Essential to me?
I may have further input once I've had more time to actually check out assistant again but I remember it having some pretty cool additional features from when I originally demoed it a few years ago. Being able to adjust the amount of vibrato and bend pitch as well as the basic tuning and timing is a key one. I generally use it more on our collaborations than on my own stuff, partly because I don't have the option of doing another take and partly because if I'm only working to my own standards then perfectionism completely goes out of the window, haha. But yeah, I'd recommend Essentials, especially if there are any Black Friday sales still going on. Or if not give the demo a go, I think it's basically unlimited for a set period of time so you can get a good feel for it.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by ujnhunter »

Lunkhead wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:41 am
If you're potentially going to spend $100 just on autotune, maybe you should consider buying a commercial DAW that has that functionality built in? If you have a Mac, Logic Pro X is only $199. If you have a PC, there are many options. I personally use Cubase, and you can get versions of that for $99 or $302. Both of those options would come with many $100s worth of additional plugins and virtual instruments etc. etc. I know for certain those two DAWs have Melodyne-like features built in.
If you're in the market for a DAW... sure... but if we're trying to get the "best" software for tuning vocals in post... Melodyne, not "Melodyne-like" is the way to go. I personally would never switch from Reaper to any other DAW, so even for $100s worth of additional plugins/instruments, having to open a second DAW just to tune vocals is just a waste of time and energy. I've actually gone down a route similar to this which oddly enough is how I bought Melodyne in the first place... when Samplitude Pro X Suite was on sale a few years back for around $100-150 including Melodyne Essential (which sold for around the same price by itself) considering Samplitude has tons of it's own Virtual Instruments etc... with the problem being you can only use them in said software and I have no interest in using said software... so while it may seem tempting and a better "bang for your buck", if you already use a DAW... you aren't going to want to switch to another DAW just for the "free" instruments.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by jb »

One thing that I have't seen mentioned in this thread: artists prior to the invention of pitch correction often corrected their pitch and other errors without re-performing the whole thing. The art of "punching in" a small piece of audio into the middle of a take in order to correct a flaw probably had entire classes devoted to it at Berklee, prior to the invention of Melodyne.

I bring that up just because it can sometimes seem like we're lazier now than we used to be, and AutoTune is evidence. (Just do takes until you get it right, lazy!) We might be lazier than ever, I dunno, but AutoTune isn't evidence of it. :)
owl wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:27 am
Agreed on all of these, but I've been doing all of the above (to varying degrees of success) using ReaTune so far.
It's definitely smart to learn the tools you have before you get more... not that any of us pay attention to that advice, ever. My $.02 was only to say that there's a place for pitch correction of some type-- not any specific type.

I have Logic Pro X, which has a feature called Flex Pitch, which is a flavor of pitch correction similar to Melodyne. It's useful because it's baked into Logic, where Melodyne is a plugin. I also have Melodyne Studio, which recently got a lot easier to use.

If I have to mix somebody else's vocals, I'll break out Melodyne to tweak them into pitch without asking for another take. If I have to mix my own, I'll tweak them because I'm lazy or because I *almost* got it right that last time and a little fix lets me keep that good take.


JB
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owl
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Post by owl »

jb wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:03 pm
One thing that I have't seen mentioned in this thread: artists prior to the invention of pitch correction often corrected their pitch and other errors without re-performing the whole thing. The art of "punching in" a small piece of audio into the middle of a take in order to correct a flaw probably had entire classes devoted to it at Berklee, prior to the invention of Melodyne.

I bring that up just because it can sometimes seem like we're lazier now than we used to be, and AutoTune is evidence. (Just do takes until you get it right, lazy!) We might be lazier than ever, I dunno, but AutoTune isn't evidence of it. :)
owl wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:27 am
Agreed on all of these, but I've been doing all of the above (to varying degrees of success) using ReaTune so far.
It's definitely smart to learn the tools you have before you get more... not that any of us pay attention to that advice, ever. My $.02 was only to say that there's a place for pitch correction of some type-- not any specific type.

I have Logic Pro X, which has a feature called Flex Pitch, which is a flavor of pitch correction similar to Melodyne. It's useful because it's baked into Logic, where Melodyne is a plugin. I also have Melodyne Studio, which recently got a lot easier to use.

If I have to mix somebody else's vocals, I'll break out Melodyne to tweak them into pitch without asking for another take. If I have to mix my own, I'll tweak them because I'm lazy or because I *almost* got it right that last time and a little fix lets me keep that good take.

JB
yes--I recorded vocals for an album that my old band recorded all on analog tape at Steve Albini's studio in Chicago (we still have those tape reels in our living room on the bookshelf!) and I had to do a lot of punch-ins, and we all collectively had to do a lot of immediate decisions about takes and "can I live with this?" decisions on our individual parts because of the severe time and tape cost constraints.

I guess on the one hand, you don't end up with 50 takes to painstakingly listen through individually, hand-correct, and comp together, and when it's done, it's done--no endless tweaking--but on the other hand we definitely did end up with those things where it falls slightly flat or whatever but you just have to live with it because you don't think you can fix it in the amount of time you have and there's no AutoTune or Melodyne to fix it later. But it's also that studio's philosophy, people should sound like what they sound like live. (I'd ideally like to sound BETTER than what I sound like live though, heh)

It really gives you new respect for how powerful DAWs are when you see an engineer hand-cutting and splicing tape and manually riding the faders during a live mixdown... and sometimes borrowing someone else for help when they run out of hands to adjust levels in some spot...

But I digress. I think you have a good point, autotuning isn't necessarily some modern symptom of laziness.

P.S. Fuck it, I bought Melodyne Essential. And grilled my Sweetwater rep about it too when he called me a few minutes later (he sent me this chart and then tried to get me to switch to Studio One for some reason). One of the last things I bought was a pair of cashmere sweatpants, and I decided if I'm going to be dumb and bourgeois and buy stuff like that, I might as well spend $50 on something that seems like it could have benefits for my creative output for years to come. (100% recommend the sweatpants, btw)

Now I just have to write a song for the next fight to actually use it on.
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