Occupies the Place of a Review Thread (Occupy reviews)

[PiGPEN]

obviously you thought it was acceptable.
that's what the argument is about
duh

Then say it's your personal opinion rather than in the name of feminism because that's just wrong.

[sportswriters]

I've never said anything about feminism. Try to keep up.

[roymond]

It finally occurred to me that this is the Occupies the Place of a Review Thread. And you two are playing the role to a tee. But, as art imitates life...what exactly is your point?

[Paco Del Stinko]

I smell a duel!

[JonPorobil]

There's a couple more iterations of the word "bitch" in the song but those are bitch as emphasis and no self-respecting feminist would even bother arguing the use of that since it's use is so far removed from the words original definition.

Do you honestly believe that? Really and truly? Because if so, I have to assume that you've never spent any time actually talking to a feminist.

I really don't feel like going over "Male Privilege 101" with you, but the word "bitch" is offensive to women in just about any context short of dog shows, and the fact that you think it's okay to use it as an interjection doesn't make it acceptable, it just demonstrates how deep the prejudice runs. It makes women feel guilty for the simple sin of being female, and that is capital-b Bad in the moral universe of any feminist.

PiGPEN, one thing worth mentioning here is that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't calling you sexist or chauvanistic. But the character you're playing in that song definitely is. You've repeatedly said that your song is meant to be a joke, so I'm not sure why you're now rushing to defend the target of your satire. So now I'm thinking, if you take these accusations personally, and start to say that "it's perfectly acceptable" to use the word "bitch" as an interjection, or to say lines like "I like "I like money, i like bitches / But not when the two coexist-es" or "I like mah bacon crispy, i like mah bitches ditzy," then maybe I just hit a little too close to home.

[glennny]

when I trip over my kids toys and exclaim "Alfred Bitch Cock!" is that offensive?

[JonPorobil]

when I trip over my kids toys and exclaim "Alfred Bitch Cock!" is that offensive?

Actually, you raise a good point Glen, one that I forgot to bring up with PiGPEN. Yeah, "Alfred Bitch Cock" is a little bit offensive (mind you, not nearly as bad as "I like my bitches ditzy"), but it also dulls that sting by being actually funny. PiGPEN tried to use TVTropes.org to prove a point earlier, so he will probably already be familiar with this adage: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny

You can get away with a lot more if you provoke genuine laughter. Frankie Big Face's "Unholy Alliance" was kind of offensive, but I was actually laughing and grinning like an idiot by the time the song ended, so it's all good. And I know humor is subjective, but PiGPEN's song didn't actually make me laugh. I recognized the satire (again, PiGPEN, I'm impugning the narrator of the song, not you), but it wasn't funny. Oh well, better luck next time.

[Billy's Little Trip]

when I trip over my kids toys and exclaim "Marry Tyler Whore!" is that offensive?

[roymond]

when I trip over my kids toys and exclaim "Alfred Bitch Cock!" is that offensive?

No, but it's funnier when your kids start yelling that.

[RangerDenni]

I decided one day to:
1. not be offended about anything
2. If I couldn't do number one:
3. I'd cry.
4. Then I'd get over it.
5. I now come to songfight, and enter these contests.
6. Then I read y'alls review of my tunes.
7. I consider your kind suggestions.
8. Then I enter the following week, time permitting.

Hope everyone is having a lovely day. many hugs xx

[sportswriters]

I'm not remotely offended by pigpen's words. I just choose not to listen to them, because they're a banal and lazy rap cliche, whether or not they're used in the mouth of a persona (another lazy rap cliche, by the way, always used by lilywhites who want to pretend they're gangsters on the way up, and gangsters who want to pretend they're lilywhites on the way down).

Anyway, I guess people sure do find that stuff ignorant or offensive or whatever. Either pigpen is concerned about that, or he's not.

If he's not, in my opinion he should just drop it because honey badger don't give a shit.

The fact that he's still whining about it suggests that actually it bothers him that people think his stuff is offensive. Which is fine, and in which case he should reconsider using those words or dissociate himself from the much more clearly in the lyrics. For example, giving the audience a chance to realize you're satirizing a persona before throwing out the B-words would be a start.

Bottom line: if you have to keep explaining why your song isn't offensive,you're doing it wrong, same as if you had to keep explaining why that note that sounds flat isn't really flat.

Song should speak for itself.

[hillbilly]

I have got to take Pigs side, in that type of music your gonna hear Bitch, nigga, hoe and making money. 5 of my coworkers are black, even though I'm slightly red have a lot of black friends, would not believe the shit i have heard. Just dont think Pig was trying to offend anyone. But i have enjoyed yall fussing. And by the way the new lefty strat is the butter.

[PiGPEN]

Stuff

Gonna start ignoring you now since you enjoy arguing more than me.

There's a couple more iterations of the word "bitch" in the song but those are bitch as emphasis and no self-respecting feminist would even bother arguing the use of that since it's use is so far removed from the words original definition.

Do you honestly believe that? Really and truly? Because if so, I have to assume that you've never spent any time actually talking to a feminist.

I was raised by one. Well i'm not sure i'd consider anyone who isn't actively trying to push forward the political rights of women as an actual feminist but my mom certainly thinks of herself as one.

the word "bitch" is offensive to women in just about any context short of dog shows

You're painting with far too wide a brush, that shit is entirely subjective.

It makes women feel guilty for the simple sin of being female, and that is capital-b Bad in the moral universe of any feminist.

From these statements you certainly don't seem to think women are very strong. Or very culturally aware for that matter.

PiGPEN, one thing worth mentioning here is that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't calling you sexist or chauvanistic. But the character you're playing in that song definitely is.

Yeah the character is a chauvinist but that's only a very small portion of the character and i find it frustrating that you assess my song with no regard for context.....the same way you assess feminism.

You've repeatedly said that your song is meant to be a joke

It's character based fiction and it's humorous but i wouldn't consider it a joke.

I'm not sure why you're now rushing to defend the target of your satire. So now I'm thinking, if you take these accusations personally, and start to say that "it's perfectly acceptable" to use the word "bitch" as an interjection, or to say lines like "I like "I like money, i like bitches / But not when the two coexist-es" or "I like mah bacon crispy, i like mah bitches ditzy," then maybe I just hit a little too close to home.

Because the target of my satire wasn't chauvinists, a western chauvinist isn't worth getting out of bed to make fun of - other less original rappers do that shit.... that's why i'm insulted. I built up a realistic multi-faceted one-percenter character who's particular about the material of clothing he wears and the crispiness of his bacon and the style of his footwear and the brand of his bicycle and shows a total disregard for the wealth-gap AND feels uncomfortable working beside females in his male dominated industry AND likes to feel more intelligent than his partner when in a romantic relationship (oddly yall didnt bring this up but in the song he also mentions preferring anal sex....this is part of that facet of his character).

But i'll also defend using "bitch" in a generic fashion... or in art, any fashion you want. Seriously, leave the feminazi bullshit at home, women listen to rap music, women sing-along to rap music, women sing-along to Eminem's Kill You.
Deal with it.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Would you bitches stop arguing in circles and do some cunty reviews? You are all whores!

edit: Opps! With the exception of DJ.

[RangerDenni]

Would you bitches stop arguing in circles and do some cunty reviews? You are all whores!

edit: Opps! With the exception of DJ.

what's the matter with you, Alfred Bitchcock?! Think I can't do the cunty reviews cuz Im a girl?! Think again, knave!!!
xxx
heeheehee

*edit: djrangerden, conveniently forgets, whilst referring to herself in the third person, that she always pikes out of doing reviews!!! :S

[bdog5778]

I've gotta say, when I heard PiGPEN's song the person who immediately came to mind was Les Grossman from Tropic Thunder. Through that lens, it was friggin' hilarious. It's a shame others don't get the joke. I thought the over-the-top nature of it conveyed everything perfectly (and obviously). To each his or her own. Still, this IS a review thread, so maybe the pholosophical treatises on gender studies and linguistics should happen somewhere else.

[JonPorobil]

It makes women feel guilty for the simple sin of being female, and that is capital-b Bad in the moral universe of any feminist.

From these statements you certainly don't seem to think women are very strong. Or very culturally aware for that matter.

(At this point, you've said enough stupid things yourself - outside the context of your song's character - that I'm going to start addressing "you" and not "the narrator of your song.") So, PiGPEN you think it's okay to refer to entire groups of people by words specifically coined to offend them, because it's a sign that you respect them enough to think they can take it? Do you think white guys can walk around in black neighborhoods calling everyone the n-word because black people are "strong" and "culturally aware" enough not to be offended by it? It's a slur, and you think you should get a pass for using it just because the culture has normified it. Claiming to be a feminist does not give you license to use language that women find offensive.

Cultural awareness and cultural acceptance are two very different things. You can be aware that many rappers use the word "bitch" as an interjection, and still think it's symptomatic of systemic misogyny. Which it is.

None of that actually matters anyway, because you don't get to decide what people are offended by. You can't declare your own work appropriate just because you don't want to admit you might have made a mistake. If someone's offended, you can't deny them that. In this scenario, you're the empowered individual (the male) using language whose purpose is to emphasize your superiority to the disempowered group (the female). You can't just hand-wave it by saying "no self-respecting feminist would be offended by this." Because people are offended by it. A whole lot of them are, actually.

So if you think you, as the societally powered person in this exchange, get to decide which phrases you choose are allowed to be considered offensive by the group you're speaking against, then I have to assume that you're not actually interested in listening to what they have to say.

[Ross]

So I have been totally remisce in listening, but I finally listened to the pigPen song and my mainreaction was - really? This is what people are spending three pages of review boards on?


Thansk to everyone who wrote reviews, sorry i didn't get to it. Especially to JoS for hearing my whole song. i was sort of amused by the number of people referring to my song as protest lyrics and such, it's a love song, the words are all allegory, well, I thought they were, anyway.

Hoepfully see you fight after next. Paco, here's to you and I being tied for something again

[Paco Del Stinko]

Paco, here's to you and I being tied for something again

Hey! You're not supposed to be looking!

[Lunkhead]

Song should speak for itself.

Yes! This isn't "Song + long winded explanation of your concept justifying why your song sucks" fight.

[PiGPEN]

So, PiGPEN you think it's okay to refer to entire groups of people by words specifically coined to offend them, because it's a sign that you respect them enough to think they can take it?
Do you think white guys can walk around in black neighborhoods calling everyone the n-word because black people are "strong" and "culturally aware" enough not to be offended by it? It's a slur, and you think you should get a pass for using it just because the culture has normified it. Claiming to be a feminist does not give you license to use language that women find offensive.

I also used the word "nigga"....what matters is the context. Quit being a cunt.

Cultural awareness and cultural acceptance are two very different things. You can be aware that many rappers use the word "bitch" as an interjection, and still think it's symptomatic of systemic misogyny. Which it is.

That's too cerebral to be true. Rappers say "bitch" when they want to sound aggressive since it sounds good. Same reason you and they would use "baby" or "giiiiirrrrl" in something lighter.

None of that actually matters anyway, because you don't get to decide what people are offended by.

Then say YOU are offended instead of DERP DERP FEMINISM. You don't get to decide what women are offended by.

Some other bullshit.

I can't take "feminism" serious when it's just on some thought police bullshit.
There's women in slave trades, being stoned to death (for having the gall to be raped), being sold into marriage, female circumcision, "democracies" where women dont have the right to vote or hold office.

[JonPorobil]

None of that actually matters anyway, because you don't get to decide what people are offended by.

Then say YOU are offended instead of DERP DERP FEMINISM. You don't get to decide what women are offended by.

You are the only person in this thread who has used the word "feminism" (well, until now). I just linked to a bunch of women who are offended by things exactly like what you said, and you're just denying that they exist.

I'm done with this.