"Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Discuss upcoming, current, and previous song fights.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by fluffy »

darricklucas wrote:why isn't your work worth $35 to you?
Why do you think registering every song for $35 is a worthwhile investment?

Some of us have written hundreds, or in a few extreme cases, thousands of songs, and you'd have to get very lucky with something to recoup that investment. Also don't forget that suing someone over copyright violations requires a lot of work and money for lawyers, court fees, etc.

Also some of us are more interested in free culture and open expression and just want to make stuff for our own enjoyment and hope that others enjoy it too.

There is a reason record labels exist, and it isn't to make musicians' lives miserable. (Even if that's the long-term effect of them.)
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by chocolatechips »

darricklucas wrote: why isn't your work worth $35 to you?

also going I-vi I-vi I-V I -V/V is a progression that is so common it is most certainly in public domain.
couple points:

1. personally (and I don't think I'm alone here) I look at songfight songs as practice - they just aren't worth going to some special effort to copyright - I think some people (*cough* *cough*) are overly worried about people stealing their precious songs when there's really very little chance of that happening. unless you truly believe you have a hit on your hands (and 99.99% of the time that's probably pure delusion anyway) you are wasting $35.

2. you cannot copyright a chord progression. melody/lyrics yes, not chord progressions. most chord progressions have been used thousands of times ... probably millions in the case of really common progressions like 12 bar blues or I-IV-V... (and from his comments he appeared to be joking.)
Last edited by chocolatechips on Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by darricklucas »

chocolatechips wrote:
darricklucas wrote: why isn't your work worth $35 to you?

also going I-vi I-vi I-V I -V/V is a progression that is so common it is most certainly in public domain.
couple points:

1. personally (and I don't think I'm alone here) I look at songfight songs as practice - they just aren't worth going to some special effort to copyright - I think some people (*cough* *cough*) are overly worried about people stealing their precious songs when there's really very little chance of that happening. unless you truly believe you have a hit on your hands (and 99.99% of the time that's probably pure delusion anyway) you are wasting $35.

2. you cannot be copyright a chord progression. melody/lyrics yes, not chord progressions. most chord progressions have been used thousands of times ... probably millions in the case of really common progressions like 12 bar blues or I-IV-V... (and from his comments he appeared to be joking.)

I am not worried about people stealing my work. If you read the posts up to this point I was saying how unlikely it is that someone would steal.

My entire point was that you cannot copyright a progression, thanks for agreeing!

If I have made a song and it is not worth spending the money to copyright it, its probably not finished yet. :mrgreen:
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by darricklucas »

fluffy wrote:
darricklucas wrote:why isn't your work worth $35 to you?
Why do you think registering every song for $35 is a worthwhile investment?

Some of us have written hundreds, or in a few extreme cases, thousands of songs, and you'd have to get very lucky with something to recoup that investment. Also don't forget that suing someone over copyright violations requires a lot of work and money for lawyers, court fees, etc.

Also some of us are more interested in free culture and open expression and just want to make stuff for our own enjoyment and hope that others enjoy it too.

There is a reason record labels exist, and it isn't to make musicians' lives miserable. (Even if that's the long-term effect of them.)

yeah man if when I am done its not worth $35...I'm probably not done.

and I am all about free culture - I give away all my music with a donate if you feel type thing. Copyrighting is so I can shop my portfolio around with piece of mind.

This is not a hobby for me. 100% of my income comes from a few regular gigs, some teaching gigs, arranging work and some odd stuff I get called for a few times a month. I am not rich by any means and I have to put in 40+ hours/week on top of being a full time student but I don't mind seeing as it is my life's passion. It's not about the money, but I need to make some or else I don't eat.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by jb »

If you're going to copyright songs using the $35 thing, bundle them up and copyright a group of songs as an album. Or double album. The protection is no less than if you copyrighted them one by one. The risk of being robbed between writing song #1 and song #12 is negligible, and don't worry quite so much about making a legit album that holds up-- you're just doing this for the copyright, right?

But the letter of the law is clear, it seems, though I am not a lawyer. As soon as you write it, it's copyrighted, and the only way someone else can legally create something that would otherwise seem like "infringement" is if they never were exposed your work. That's a key piece of information, and it's kind of why mailing it to yourself isn't a strong protection. Putting an album up on soundcloud, or amazon.com, etc. That's pretty strong I would think, though of course I am not a lawyer. It would be hard to make a case that you had no chance of being exposed-- unless everybody is prepared to get a list of your IP addresses from your internet provider and then convince Spotify or whoever to tell you which IPs had listened to which songs, etc.

Posting to Song Fight is definitely a way to publicize copyright (or publicize your infringement of same, natch), though a fairly low-trafficked method that could probably be defended against by an honest "WTF is a Song Fight?" response in a deposition.

It's not exactly true that the people with money always win copyright infringement cases, as shown by some of the more high profile incidents I've linked below. That's not to diminish their ability to get their way, but it's still possible to defend your copyright as an independent. And the law will say what the law will say, even if you're an idiot like the first lady below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/nyreg ... d=all&_r=0
But Ms. Harley proceeded to do just about everything possible to sabotage her own claim. She failed to appear for hearings or showed up late. Judges accused her of interrupting them, filing frivolous motions, disobeying court orders and refusing to participate in the discovery process. She accused judges of bias. She was admonished in court, ordered to pay about $13,000 in sanctions and even barred from using certain evidence. One particularly exasperated judge observed: “The world is going to end someday, and my job is to try to see that this case gets adjudicated before the world ends.” And then something remarkable happened: Ms. Harley won her case.
http://www.davies.com.au/pub/detail/536 ... ght-appeal
the iconic flute riffs of the 1980s Men At Work hit ‘Down Under’ had infringed the copyright in the children’s campfire song ‘Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gumtree’ penned by Marion Sinclair in 1934. The decision brings to a close one of the most high-profile copyright cases in recent years, and will mean the EMI companies (owners and licensees of the Down Under copyright) must pay Larrikin (owner of the copyright in Kookaburra) 5% of all royalties they received from Down Under.
http://www.hitfix.com/news/marvin-gaye- ... right-case
http://www.delcotimes.com/arts-and-ente ... king-songs
Oasis took the song, “I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing (In Perfect Harmony),” which was a jingle for Coca-Cola in the ’70s, and made it into the hit single, “Shakermaker.” The band was successfully sued by The New Seekers, the group that performed the song.
George Harrison’s post-Beatles No. 1, “My Sweet Lord,” is one of the most famous sound-alike cases. Bearing an uncanny resemblance in almost every respect to The Chiffons’ “He’s So Fine,” a long litigation followed, resulting in all of the royalties from “My Sweet Lord” having to be surrendered, along with some of the money earned from the three-album set it came from, “All Things Must Pass.”
The Stones released the bland single “Anybody Seen My Baby?” in 1997 on the equally abysmal “Bridges to Babylon” record. But the song’s refrain sounds exactly like k.d. Lang’s hit, “Constant Craving,” which landed on the charts five years prior. Both Mick Jagger and Keith Richards denied having ever heard the track, but agreed it was similar enough to give Lang and her co-writer a songwriting credit on the song.
HTH,

JB
blippity blop ya don’t stop heyyyyyyyyy
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by Spud »

Paco Del Stinko wrote:I usually look at the specific, but it's not here for some...reason...
Because some jokers couldn't be arsed to look at the board, it's been moved to the front page, Paco. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by Paco Del Stinko »

Not an inconvenience at all, Spud. I am truly grateful for what you do here and try my best not to make it harder for you. Or the other guy either.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by darricklucas »

jb wrote:If you're going to copyright songs using the $35 thing, bundle them up and copyright a group of songs as an album. Or double album. The protection is no less than if you copyrighted them one by one. The risk of being robbed between writing song #1 and song #12 is negligible, and don't worry quite so much about making a legit album that holds up-- you're just doing this for the copyright, right?

But the letter of the law is clear, it seems, though I am not a lawyer. As soon as you write it, it's copyrighted, and the only way someone else can legally create something that would otherwise seem like "infringement" is if they never were exposed your work. That's a key piece of information, and it's kind of why mailing it to yourself isn't a strong protection. Putting an album up on soundcloud, or amazon.com, etc. That's pretty strong I would think, though of course I am not a lawyer. It would be hard to make a case that you had no chance of being exposed-- unless everybody is prepared to get a list of your IP addresses from your internet provider and then convince Spotify or whoever to tell you which IPs had listened to which songs, etc.

Posting to Song Fight is definitely a way to publicize copyright (or publicize your infringement of same, natch), though a fairly low-trafficked method that could probably be defended against by an honest "WTF is a Song Fight?" response in a deposition.

It's not exactly true that the people with money always win copyright infringement cases, as shown by some of the more high profile incidents I've linked below. That's not to diminish their ability to get their way, but it's still possible to defend your copyright as an independent. And the law will say what the law will say, even if you're an idiot like the first lady below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/nyreg ... d=all&_r=0
But Ms. Harley proceeded to do just about everything possible to sabotage her own claim. She failed to appear for hearings or showed up late. Judges accused her of interrupting them, filing frivolous motions, disobeying court orders and refusing to participate in the discovery process. She accused judges of bias. She was admonished in court, ordered to pay about $13,000 in sanctions and even barred from using certain evidence. One particularly exasperated judge observed: “The world is going to end someday, and my job is to try to see that this case gets adjudicated before the world ends.” And then something remarkable happened: Ms. Harley won her case.
http://www.davies.com.au/pub/detail/536 ... ght-appeal
the iconic flute riffs of the 1980s Men At Work hit ‘Down Under’ had infringed the copyright in the children’s campfire song ‘Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gumtree’ penned by Marion Sinclair in 1934. The decision brings to a close one of the most high-profile copyright cases in recent years, and will mean the EMI companies (owners and licensees of the Down Under copyright) must pay Larrikin (owner of the copyright in Kookaburra) 5% of all royalties they received from Down Under.
http://www.hitfix.com/news/marvin-gaye- ... right-case
http://www.delcotimes.com/arts-and-ente ... king-songs
Oasis took the song, “I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing (In Perfect Harmony),” which was a jingle for Coca-Cola in the ’70s, and made it into the hit single, “Shakermaker.” The band was successfully sued by The New Seekers, the group that performed the song.
George Harrison’s post-Beatles No. 1, “My Sweet Lord,” is one of the most famous sound-alike cases. Bearing an uncanny resemblance in almost every respect to The Chiffons’ “He’s So Fine,” a long litigation followed, resulting in all of the royalties from “My Sweet Lord” having to be surrendered, along with some of the money earned from the three-album set it came from, “All Things Must Pass.”
The Stones released the bland single “Anybody Seen My Baby?” in 1997 on the equally abysmal “Bridges to Babylon” record. But the song’s refrain sounds exactly like k.d. Lang’s hit, “Constant Craving,” which landed on the charts five years prior. Both Mick Jagger and Keith Richards denied having ever heard the track, but agreed it was similar enough to give Lang and her co-writer a songwriting credit on the song.
HTH,

JB

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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by Kip Lightning »

My song stinks this week. Had one early, didn't like it, thought I'd have time, didn't ,so I jammed one out last night. Better than nothing. Rip it up, people.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by AJOwens »

darricklucas wrote:
why isn't your work worth $35 to you?

also going I-vi I-vi I-V I -V/V is a progression that is so common it is most certainly in public domain.


When we talk about standards such as 'Oleo' or 'Good Bait' do we ALWAYS give credit to Gershwin for preceding it with 'I got rhythm'? - only when we are talking about rhythm changes as its own subject
Just for the record, Bb - G is not I-vi. They're not even in the same key.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by darricklucas »

submitted this week's song I have

ask if I labelled everything correctly.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by JonPorobil »

AJOwens wrote:
darricklucas wrote:
why isn't your work worth $35 to you?

also going I-vi I-vi I-V I -V/V is a progression that is so common it is most certainly in public domain.


When we talk about standards such as 'Oleo' or 'Good Bait' do we ALWAYS give credit to Gershwin for preceding it with 'I got rhythm'? - only when we are talking about rhythm changes as its own subject
Just for the record, Bb - G is not I-vi. They're not even in the same key.
Darrick's wrong in the details, but he's correct that you cannot copyright a chord progression. Now, if you'd written that sax line or the melody, then you might be onto something.

By the way, I've had "Baker Street" stuck in my head all day now, so thanks for that.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by Paco Del Stinko »

I am wishing for...new music from JB this week. He's LONG overdue. I am also wishing for...Kweep to return. I dug his stuff, too. One last wish for...Hans Gruber: Ultimate Villain. He had a sound I liked as well. OK. I'm closing my eyes, and when I open them, yay!
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by darricklucas »

AJOwens wrote:
darricklucas wrote:
why isn't your work worth $35 to you?

also going I-vi I-vi I-V I -V/V is a progression that is so common it is most certainly in public domain.


When we talk about standards such as 'Oleo' or 'Good Bait' do we ALWAYS give credit to Gershwin for preceding it with 'I got rhythm'? - only when we are talking about rhythm changes as its own subject
Just for the record, Bb - G is not I-vi. They're not even in the same key.

no bro G is the vi of Bb. If you are altering the chord it becomes V/ii but in the context of jazz charts we just call it a 'vi' and then express whatever is altered - ie VIdom or VIalt or vimin/maj7 etc
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by Paco Del Stinko »

One more wish that I learned from the Klownhole gang: neckpunch.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by jb »

blippity blop ya don’t stop heyyyyyyyyy
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by AJOwens »

darricklucas wrote: no bro G is the vi of Bb. If you are altering the chord it becomes V/ii but in the context of jazz charts we just call it a 'vi' and then express whatever is altered - ie VIdom or VIalt or vimin/maj7 etc
Gm is the vi of Bb.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by Paco Del Stinko »

JB is, without a doubt, a force. Bow, people. Bow.
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by chocolatechips »

i'm hoping the review thread is as much fun as the pre-fight thread ...

darricklucas - I'm curious as to what kind of music you're into (listening to)?
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by darricklucas »

Currently listening the album "I want you" by Strange Changes

http://strangechangesmusic.com/album/68127/i-want-you
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by darricklucas »

AJOwens wrote:
darricklucas wrote: no bro G is the vi of Bb. If you are altering the chord it becomes V/ii but in the context of jazz charts we just call it a 'vi' and then express whatever is altered - ie VIdom or VIalt or vimin/maj7 etc
Gm is the vi of Bb.
I - VIalt then
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Re: "Suitcase" - PRE-FIGHT DISCUSSION/ARGUING

Post by AJOwens »

darricklucas wrote:
AJOwens wrote:
Gm is the vi of Bb.
I - VIalt then
And I don't know if you're familiar with "Baker Street," but the hook progression I'm talking about doesn't begin on I. The G in my particular instantiation is the I. So the Bb is iii, only major. And flatted. Which is why I decided to avoid that kind of notation in the first place.
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