Nur Ein VII Round Five "Cassettes"

[roymond]

Tune in later when roymond publishes his colorful lava lamp of reviews...

FYI, I still haven't been able to read your last reviews due to a permission error.

Oh crap. And you're the first to mention it, so they obviously hold everyone's attention. For what it's worth, then, here's a better link (screw that dropbox crap).

[Caravan Ray]

Tune in later when roymond publishes his colorful lava lamp of reviews...

FYI, I still haven't been able to read your last reviews due to a permission error.

Oh crap. And you're the first to mention it, so they obviously hold everyone's attention. .

He's not the first to mention it. Obviously my posts don't hold everyone's attention.

oh crap, my reviews are .

Error (403)
It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in. Check out our Help Center and forums for help, or head back to home.

[roymond]

oh crap, my reviews are .

Error (403)
It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in. Check out our Help Center and forums for help, or head back to home.

That's clearly directed at you! I just assumed you needed to head back to home. (sorry 'bout that)

[Manhattan Glutton]

Congratulations! Calling me a cheater is about the worst thing you can call me.

Then don't cheat?

[Lunkhead]

Well, I'm disappointed to have had to drop out of Nur Ein, but I guess I'll be glad that MG will be giving me less shit about not fulfilling the Nur Ein challenges properly at Song Fight! Live this time.

[glennny]

MG,

I don't cheat. I never have. You either don't know what cheating means, or you're just teasing me.
We're on the same playing field, we had no advantage over you. We both had equal opportunity to weight the challenge as we pleased. We clearly have a difference in opinion to the letter of the challenge. I thought both you and WSA completely fulfilled the challenge. You are a reasonable person, and I'm sure you know we didn't cheat. We don't know the results yet. Either one or both of us may be eliminated. Best of luck to you!

Cheers!

NUR EIN!!!!!

[Manhattan Glutton]

I don't cheat. I never have.

Not on purpose, anyway.

We're on the same playing field, we had no advantage over you.

Except for the having 5 people thing.

We both had equal opportunity to weight the challenge as we pleased.

There is no room for creative interpretation of a 19th century poetic form.

We clearly have a difference in opinion to the letter of the challenge.

Indeed. See, I read the definition of villanelle, and you pulled the definition out of your ass. "A villanelle has only two rhyme sounds. The first and third lines of the first stanza are rhyming refrains that alternate as the third line in each successive stanza and form a couplet at the close. A villanelle is nineteen lines long, consisting of five tercets and one concluding quatrain."

You are a reasonable person

Yes, I'm the most down to earth person here, and that is why I'm calling you out on your detachment from reality.

[Caravan Ray]

There is no room for creative interpretation of a 19th century poetic form.

Absolutely right. A song writing competition is no place for any messy outbreaks of creativity.

[Ross]

Well, i think we all know it is really up to the judges' interpretations.

I think there are two interesting things that underpin this conversation:

a) what is the purpose of a non-optional challenge? Is it a restriction meant to force us to work our creativity within a set of restraints, or is it a catalyst to drive creativity and encourage us to think outside our normal modes( or both)

B) how much freedom of interpretation is too much? If I had said, "the tercet thing didn't really work for me, rhythm-wise, so I used quatrains, but I still used only 2 rhyme sounds and 2 refrains" would that have been too much? What if I chose 3 rhyme sounds? Or decided to make a couplet in the first tercet?

There must be some latitude that is too much?,where?

I guess that is up to all of the judges, it will be interesting to see how many comment on their place in this.

The thing that frustrates me most is when there is a review like, "well you got a little too flexible with the challenge, but the song is so good, I'll look past that." because it begs the question of whether the song quality depended on the flexibilty or not. At that point it becomes difficult to compare the quality of songs that took strict interpretations versus those with more flexible interpretations.

Not sure If I'm making sense, but those are some thoughts I am having as I follow this thread.

@jefff - the fact that your gf went from catty to "I like this!" - i love that

Nur Ein!!!!!

[glennny]

MG

We have the same definition of a classic villanelle.

WSA did that in the song. Check!

Where you and I differ is to what the challenge was.

It read as one word "villanelle".

We used that in our song, we thought we totally fulfilled the challenge.

You read that one word "villanelle" and for some reason thought it said:
All utterances in must comply with the classic villanelle form, no other utterances shall be allowed.

If it was that iron clad, I would expect such lawyer speak. Left at one word, it is vague enough for all of our interpretations.

BTW "pulling things out of ones ass" is a skill any good improvising musician should have.
,but I never pulled that definition out of my ass.

[Manhattan Glutton]

The point of restrictive challenges is to force you to be creative in other ways. You guys wrote a normal song, slapped in some odd rhymes, and called it good. That is not in the spirit of the competition. It's apparent you'll do anything to win. Even if the judges side with you, you should feel ashamed.

[Ross]

This banter inspired me to go look back at the lyric thread. I actually find more troubling the lack of precision of the rhymes - i felt the same way when I saw Den's lyrics. Also, i think ending with a couplet seems essential to me.

[Caravan Ray]

MG
We have the same definition of a classic villanelle.

Which means that neither of you are necesarily correct (or incorrect).
Strange as it may seem for a poem with such a rigid rhyme scheme, the villanelle did not start off as a fixed form. During the Renaissance, the villanella and villancico (from the Italian villano, or peasant) were Italian and Spanish dance-songs. French poets who called their poems "villanelle" did not follow any specific schemes, rhymes, or refrains. Rather, the title implied that, like the Italian and Spanish dance-songs, their poems spoke of simple, often pastoral or rustic themes....

Contemporary poets have not limited themselves to the pastoral themes originally expressed by the free-form villanelles of the Renaissance, and have loosened the fixed form to allow variations on the refrains.
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/5796

Everything is open to interpretation. Even poetic forms which may (or may not) have originated in the 19th century.

[Caravan Ray]

The point of restrictive challenges is to force you to be creative in other ways.

That is one interpretation.

Another interpretation is that the judge that suggested this one just wanted to annoy the contestents. I am pretty sure that was the point of all the challenges I suggested when I was a judge.

[Ross]

MG
We have the same definition of a classic villanelle.

Which means that neither of you are necesarily correct (or incorrect).
Strange as it may seem for a poem with such a rigid rhyme scheme, the villanelle did not start off as a fixed form. During the Renaissance, the villanella and villancico (from the Italian villano, or peasant) were Italian and Spanish dance-songs. French poets who called their poems "villanelle" did not follow any specific schemes, rhymes, or refrains. Rather, the title implied that, like the Italian and Spanish dance-songs, their poems spoke of simple, often pastoral or rustic themes....

Contemporary poets have not limited themselves to the pastoral themes originally expressed by the free-form villanelles of the Renaissance, and have loosened the fixed form to allow variations on the refrains.
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/5796

Everything is open to interpretation. Even poetic forms which may (or may not) have originated in the 19th century.

I went to your source, wise of you to turn to Amercans to clear this up for you. If I were to sum up the article you reference, it would say something like, " villanelles have a strict structure and rhyme scheme, even though it hasn't always been that way. The level of flexibility utilized by contemporary poets are in theme and some alteration in refrain lines between stanzas."

[frankie big face]

The thing that frustrates me most is when there is a review like, "well you got a little too flexible with the challenge, but the song is so good, I'll look past that." because it begs the question of whether the song quality depended on the flexibilty or not.

Ross, that sounds awfully close to my review of WSA's song except without the "I'll look past that" part. If you are referring to my review, I would add that a) I am not a judge, b) I don't look past it at all, c) I do think the song is good, and d) I was trying (unsuccessfully) to avoid what has followed. Since we're into it pretty heavy now, I would say that, if I were a judge, WSA would be out. Probably so would DJ because she didn't meet the rhyming requirements. Jefff squeaks by for me, but I can't exactly explain why.

I think, if the judges do rank WSA high enough to continue, they owe us more clarity on future non-optional challenges and maybe a tiny bit of an explanation. Just my two cents.

[RangerDenni]

I'm willing to take hits with the judges if they don't like near rhymes. But I use them a lot in poetry. It's allowed. It's not unprecedented in poetry or song. I don't even mind if I am selectively not-preferred; which I suppose could happen. I didnt expect to get this far. I'm here because I had a good guest round. We all know this.

But I'm a good lyricist and a good poet and I said what I wanted to say. I made as Pop a song as I could out of an old Form. I stand by this song, and all the decisions I made concerning it, although I'm still going to polish it more, because I like it.

Nur Ein.

ps. These are not variants in b rhymes, but these are Sylvia Plath's lines of 'b' in her villanelle
http://inwardboundpoetry.blogspot.com/2 ... g.html?m=1

[frankie big face]

thought I would respond with something a bit more ambitious that might appeal to some of the art rock crowd (which includes Roymond, so again, the risks were calculated).

Is roymond really that predictable?
Will this risky play pay off for the Big Face?
Will roymond weave an interpretive justification into his rating?
Will Frankie's crotales be left in the recycling bin of history?

Tune in later when roymond publishes his colorful lava lamp of reviews...

To be fair, I said it as a calculated risk, not an obvious ploy. I also thought Niveous might enjoy my song and j$ and Noah would maybe reward me for the lyrics even if they hated the song. I don't remember who the other judge is.

[Ross]

The thing that frustrates me most is when there is a review like, "well you got a little too flexible with the challenge, but the song is so good, I'll look past that." because it begs the question of whether the song quality depended on the flexibilty or not.

Ross, that sounds awfully close to my review of WSA's song except without the "I'll look past that" part. If you are referring to my review, I would add that a) I am not a judge, b) I don't look past it at all, c) I do think the song is good, and d) I was trying (unsuccessfully) to avoid what has followed. Since we're into it pretty heavy now, I would say that, if I were a judge, WSA would be out. Probably so would DJ because she didn't meet the rhyming requirements. Jefff squeaks by for me, but I can't exactly explain why.

I think, if the judges do rank WSA high enough to continue, they owe us more clarity on future non-optional challenges and maybe a tiny bit of an explanation. Just my two cents.

I honestly was not targeting any particular review, over the years I feel like I have read lots of reviews with that gist. Not meant as a personal jab at all, seriously just thinking out loud - well as loud as I can type.

[frankie big face]

ps. These are not variants in b rhymes, but these are Sylvia Plath's lines of 'b' in her villanelle
http://inwardboundpoetry.blogspot.com/2 ... g.html?m=1

Fair enough. I'm cool with near rhymes but some of yours needed to be a little nearer for my tastes. I still think it's a good song and a good villanelle.

[Ross]

ps. These are not variants in b rhymes, but these are Sylvia Plath's lines of 'b' in her villanelle
http://inwardboundpoetry.blogspot.com/2 ... g.html?m=1

"name" and "men"?
That's a terrible rhyme.

[frankie big face]

The thing that frustrates me most is when there is a review like, "well you got a little too flexible with the challenge, but the song is so good, I'll look past that." because it begs the question of whether the song quality depended on the flexibilty or not.

Ross, that sounds awfully close to my review of WSA's song except without the "I'll look past that" part. If you are referring to my review, I would add that a) I am not a judge, b) I don't look past it at all, c) I do think the song is good, and d) I was trying (unsuccessfully) to avoid what has followed. Since we're into it pretty heavy now, I would say that, if I were a judge, WSA would be out. Probably so would DJ because she didn't meet the rhyming requirements. Jefff squeaks by for me, but I can't exactly explain why.

I think, if the judges do rank WSA high enough to continue, they owe us more clarity on future non-optional challenges and maybe a tiny bit of an explanation. Just my two cents.

I honestly was not targeting any particular review, over the years I feel like I have read lots of reviews with that gist. Not meant as a personal jab at all, seriously just thinking out loud - well as loud as I can type.

Not taken as a jab. Just thought you maybe inadvertently referenced my review.