Explosions in London

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:09 pm

jack wrote: my first thought when i heard this was i hope johnny cashpoint was ok.

Me too, and i was at meetings/travel for work all day... so this is the first I could check.
Where are our other Londoners?
phew, thanks for posting this. Now to read the rest of the boards.
-bill

Sheail · Post by **Sheail** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:09 am

I haven't been on songfight for a while but i felt compelled to reply to this. I recently changed jobs so I don't commute into Moorgate station anymore and was thankfully some 30 miles north yesterday. The Choppsta is also ok. That's about as much as I know.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:39 am

excellent, thanks for checking in.
i don't think it sounds all that plausible that it would have something to do with the olympics, considering how soon after the announcement it happened. this thing would have required more planning than could have happened that fast. g8, yeah, i bet it's related to that.
-bill

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:26 am

HeuristicsInc wrote:excellent, thanks for checking in.
i don't think it sounds all that plausible that it would have something to do with the olympics, considering how soon after the announcement it happened. this thing would have required more planning than could have happened that fast. g8, yeah, i bet it's related to that.
-bill

I think it had everything to do with the Olympic announcement. It was planned, "...if London wins - then BOOM...", If I was a terrorist who wanted to strike fear in the Western world - what better way then to cause havoc in the newly announced Olymipc city? (and thay were all Western candidates - even Moscow in a de facto sort of way) The fact that G8 was just up the road was an added bonus.

My problem is, I thought we invaded Iraq to stop terrorism - maybe I'm just a bit slow...

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:27 am

The kind of preparation that would have to go into this would probably make the Olympics decision more of an "unexpected bonus" than a matter of specific timing. You can't get four bombings (plus two for attempts) set up in a day or two. If you can, you've had them sitting on their thumbs for three weeks, waiting for it--at which point you wouldn't have called them off anyway. Wasteful. You don't waste a good shot if you're an international terrorist--at least I assume you wouldn't. If they have the manpower and materials to actually plan bombings and them call them off because it's not quite awesome enough, I'd be shitting myself thinking of what they might actually be able to do, wouldn't you say?

As for complacency, man, I'll tell you, terrorism simply isn't something we can really protect against. Ever play that old game where you had to shoot all the missiles before they hit your little cities? Eventually there are too many missiles. That's how terrorism works. In the meantime, it's our job to shoot down as many of those missiles as we possibly can while we try to think of some other solution to the problem. I don't think the administration (of any major power) is willing to admit this.

You just can't break up a cellular organization by brute force. That's the point of it. A simple one can take quite a lot of big hits before it falls apart, and if it's exceptionally well organized, it can take even more. On top of that fact, we're not talking about an organization (we're making the assumption that this -is- just one organization) that has a devoted grassroots following and a ready source of people in such circumstances that they would be willing to do these things even if someone didn't give them the impetus.

Am I saying we're screwed? No, but I don't think there's any way we can look at this as a "We need to prevent the attacks as they happen"/"We need to hunt them down" problem. That may be a small part of the solution, but I'll be damned if it seems to do any good. And there's no reason it should, given the nature of the problem.

So there's my little pointless rant.

Say, speaking of brighter sides--if the pound drops enough, maybe I can travel to England for once.

Future Boy · Post by **Future Boy** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:39 am

This interview with Bruce Schneier is somewhat related to Spark's rant. He's a cryptology and security expert who has some very insightful things to say about security in a "war on terror" kind of world.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:20 am

Future Boy wrote:This interview with Bruce Schneier is somewhat related to Spark's rant. He's a cryptology and security expert who has some very insightful things to say about security in a "war on terror" kind of world.

Good article.

to Sparks though - I still think if G8 was the main trigger - wouldn't the bombs be in Edinburgh?

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:35 am

Maybe not...security must be pretty high in edinburhough ...uh sp! so it's more plausible to hit a high profile target like the capital than another...plus London is probably viewed as a seat of english power...

I think Spark's rant is pretty spot on. I feel for you all who have to deal with this issue in your home... and really, there isn't much else to say other than this is a terrible thing.

Niveous · Post by **Niveous** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:35 am

I just wanted to say that I'm very happy to hear that all the UK SF'ers are okay. It was very surreal to have spent the night playing J$ music to the significant others and then to wake up in the morning, hear about the explosions and wonder if he was okay. Very surreal feeling. I'm glad everyone is okay.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:44 am

sparks wrote:The kind of preparation that would have to go into this would probably make the Olympics decision more of an "unexpected bonus" than a matter of specific timing. You can't get four bombings (plus two for attempts) set up in a day or two. If you can, you've had them sitting on their thumbs for three weeks, waiting for it--at which point you wouldn't have called them off anyway. Wasteful. You don't waste a good shot if you're an international terrorist--at least I assume you wouldn't. If they have the manpower and materials to actually plan bombings and them call them off because it's not quite awesome enough, I'd be shitting myself thinking of what they might actually be able to do, wouldn't you say?

this is much like what i was trying to say.
i'm glad there are people around here who are better with words than i am

-bill

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:25 am

Caravan Ray wrote:
Future Boy wrote:This interview with Bruce Schneier is somewhat related to Spark's rant. He's a cryptology and security expert who has some very insightful things to say about security in a "war on terror" kind of world.
Good article.

to Sparks though - I still think if G8 was the main trigger - wouldn't the bombs be in Edinburgh?

Obviously this wasn't about actually killing politicians--maybe they thought they couldn't. That's my best guess. The attacks we've seen so far usually go for the "easy" targets with most effect. Mass transport is usually involved. As for effect, you've got the capitol and largest city of the nation in question. Pretty big stuff, when you're talking terrorism PR. This isn't assassination stuff, I don't think they have the means for that at this point, or else we'd see it--there's nothing that scares the shit out of people like the assassination of a leader (and that includes civilian deaths).

I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all, but I am just pointing out how unrealistic some of these assumptions are. That always happens when something this big goes down, though--I think people lose a certain hold on perspective. I knew people (not smart people, mind) that swore up and down the terrorists attacked on 9/11 because it spells out 9-1-1 (as in the US emergency phone number). A -lot- of people said that, independent of one another. People can't always think things all the way through when talking about a recent tragedy, I guess.

Sorry, back to my point--don't you think they would have -wanted- to blow apart the G8? It's probable, though I can't pretend to be sure. Anyway, I'm pretty sure this was a case where they were thinking about one and were more than happy to get the other, not a this-or-that-alone kind of thing. I would, however, bet everything that the bombings would have occurred regardless of the outcome of the Olympic bidding. Like I said, you don't plan a six-location bombing in one day. It's just not logical. You need insiders in the country, probably citizens or at least residents. And weeks of planning. Probably more, to be sure it goes through.

Sorry, reading up I realize someone managed to say all that I had to say in about a sentence and a half. As for all my cell system babbling, I'm polishing off The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and secret revolution has just been on my mind.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:44 am

On another subject, does anyone else sit around thinking about just how goddamn easy it would be to blow something up? I have very little faith in security measures outside their ability to protect specific, closed-circle events and locations. Scary, sure, but I think it helps to think that way. You know what's in your hand and what isn't, and there's no good fooling yourself about it.

j$ · Post by j$ » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:43 am

Leaf wrote:edinburhough ...uh sp!.

That is officially the worst spelling I have even seen!

But it sounds like a word that I wish existed and want on earth it could mean!

And Niv, everyone, thanks. It's a big plus to have people who you only know 'virtually' to show so much concern for us all. Back in London now. Went on the tube and the bus yesterday, and it was half as full as it usually is. Suddenly I got a bit nervous/paranoid - everyone seemed to be carrying large, suspicious packages

j$

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:02 am

Naw, you're fine for a good month. Now, when it gets full again... that's when I'd worry.

Sorry, am I not helping?

I rode the DC Metro a few days after 9/11, and it was pretty nice. You get to put your feet up.

jack · Post by **jack** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:40 am

the worst terrorist activity i can expect here is when colin hay takes the stage at the free boardwalk concert to belt out old men at work tunes. which actually happened last night.

and believe me, that's some scary shit.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:54 pm

jack wrote:the worst terrorist activity i can expect here is when colin hay takes the stage at the free boardwalk concert to belt out old men at work tunes. which actually happened last night.

and believe me, that's some scary shit.

....oooooohhh the HUMANITY!!!!!!

We claim no responsibility - He's Scottish, not Australian (and Russel Crowe is definitely a New Zealander)

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:53 pm

And tonight Birmingham (in the centerish) of England was shut down and several 'suspision packages' were destroyed in controlled expolsions.

Now I am afraid..not of the terrorists tho...more afraid that the Politics of Fear that has been used so succesfully in the US is starting to spead to the UK, and may engulf us all, Euprope N.America Austrialaisa etc..

Sober · Post by **Sober** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:23 am

...The 'Over?

j$ · Post by j$ » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:08 am

The 'Over are Cambridgeshire based (about 60 miles from London) so I think they should be OK

j$

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:30 am

I'm pretty sure terrorism is the only thing we need to turn the world into a haven for conservative authoritarianism. And not even the kind the terrorists are allegedly pushing for.

Though I don't think Europe will ever really catch up to the American standard of xenophobia. We've got the geographic advantage, there--we've had the luxury of being able to choose imperialism or isolationism ever since independence. And we only have two neighbors, one of which is basically ethnically identical to our own. Or maybe my brain just works funny for me to even theorize like that. I'll quiet down now.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:13 am

sparks wrote:I'm pretty sure terrorism is the only thing we need to turn the world into a haven for conservative authoritarianism. And not even the kind the terrorists are allegedly pushing for.

Though I don't think Europe will ever really catch up to the American standard of xenophobia. We've got the geographic advantage, there--we've had the luxury of being able to choose imperialism or isolationism ever since independence. And we only have two neighbors, one of which is basically ethnically identical to our own. Or maybe my brain just works funny for me to even theorize like that. I'll quiet down now.

Australia could possibly match USA in the xenaphobe stakes. We currently have a government that likes to lock up foreigners indefinitely in camps in the desert.

Our one saving grace is that almost all Australians own a passport and we tend to infest every corner of the globe in a similar manner to that of the plague rat in the Dark Ages. The fact that at any given time, at any point on earth, you are likely to run into a group of young Aussie back-packers singing Khe Sahn and vomitting on themselves is strangely enough slowly breaking down the old "White Australia" mentality back home.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:58 am

No, no. See, we lock up foreigners in our prisons in their own country. That trumps all.