What do you want from a review on SongFight?

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:25 pm

[rant=dan-o from five-o]

Iâ€™ve often wondered since my last post here, is there somethingâ€¦.someway I might be drawn back in into SongFight!? Iâ€™ve wanted to write songs on the titles presented, but alas my muse escapes me and I either come up empty handed or chronically late. I have other ideas about contributing, and I await replies regarding those, but they are meaningless compared to this.

I have to comment on what basically made me want to take a break from here in the first place which is the reviews. Up front Iâ€™ll be honest, I know my reviews have been harsh at times, and they probably havenâ€™t been helpful a lot of times. So it's kind of hypocritical of me to criticize anyone who bitched about my reviews. But I will place my hand on a stack of Bibles, for those who care about such things, that my INTENT has always been to raise the level of the quality thatâ€™s being presented here music wise. I never meant to hurt anyone personally, Iâ€™ve only meant to challenge them be better than they were when I heard them. So if I've missed the opportunity in the past let me just take this opportunity to let everyone know, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. That was never my intent.

Of course, a critical comment almost always elicits a critical response. So thatâ€™s why youâ€™ve drawn me off of the sidelines of SongFight!, because this poll is complete and total bullshit. And now we have thisthread going. But staying here in this thread, letâ€™s look at the voting.

I canâ€™t believe you have absolutely no one voting for Technical production â€œquibblesâ€

Post by **Lunkhead** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:02 am

I don't think anybody has any illusions that reviews are required or necessary, but on the other hand, I think the fact that we're sending our songs out for strangers to listen to implies that we would like feedback of some kind. Why not just keep the songs to ourselves if we truly don't care what other people think about them? For some people the votes are feedback enough, but for others SF! without the reviews would be like somesongs without the comments. You would have some seemingly arbitrary rating of your song (in this case, the votes) with little to no context about why people rated your song the way they did. If you're interested in improving, or at least having more people like your songs (since "improving" is a pretty vague concept), it's nice to have some more specific feedback about what some people think you did well or poorly, or at least some indication of what their tastes are. There are people here who make music I really enjoy and who are better, I think, at some or all aspects of writing and recording a song than I am, so if those people in particular can provide feedback about what I can do "better" (or at least differently) that's helpful to me. That's why I voted for "Ideas to improve" which seemed to encapsulate all the "Comments on ..." options. That's what I ideally want in reviews. I don't think I'm being dishonest, so bite me.

(As for the reviews pet peeves thread, that was meant to be a bitter but tongue in cheek rant, not anything super serious.)

Egg · Post by **Egg** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:12 am

That thing about carnivores reviewing vegan meals is an excellent analogy. I'll probably use it a lot.

[quote="Dan-O from Five-O"]
I canâ€™t believe you have absolutely no one voting for Technical production â€œquibblesâ€

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:59 am

j$ wrote:What I want from reviews: specific details on how to improve the song. Not 'hey press Alt and f10 in audacity to get the spangulator running'. More 'this could do with a backing vocal at this point.'

To review you have to accept the song and the performance as it's given to you. We're not song doctor executive producers, we're Joes and Janes that dig music.

fodroy · Post by **fodroy** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:18 am

Dan-O from Five-O wrote:
fodroy wrote:if you're looking for good production from my songs then you're missing the point.

This is, and Dan I really donâ€™t hate you or your music but more on that later, the SINGLE biggest fucking cop out line of all time. And it is the primary reason I am so harsh in my reviews. Youâ€™re using the â€œYou just donâ€™t understandâ€

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:32 am

fodroy wrote:aren't demos supposed to sound shitty?

not anymore. the current theory is, digital recording and various other technologies for producing a clean, polished product at home have become so plentiful and affordable, if a person/group submitting a demo can't be bothered to take advantage of these resources and send in something NON-shitty, it isn't worth the record label (or whoever)'s time to give it a chance and listen.

king_arthur · Post by **king_arthur** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:47 am

dan-o - maybe somebody else has already said this, but we're only allowed one vote in this poll, for whatever is most important in reviews, so the fact that nobody has voted for "comments on lyrics" or "technical production" just means that's not the most important thing to anybody. It might be the second-most important thing to almost everyone...

I voted for "like it - hate it." See the "do you fight to win?" thread for some related thoughts, but, for me, the most useful result is "of all the people who heard the song and reviewed it, how many thought it was good enough to keep to listen to again some day." As long as a significant number of people feel that way about my songs, I feel like I'm entitled to keep submitting stuff now and then. One thing I've discovered is that most of my attempts at doing something different in response to "suggestions for improvement" have not helped in the voting, the reviews, or the love/hate ratio...

And a lot of things get wrapped up into "like it - hate it." I care a lot about lyrics, tuning, rhythm, singing, technical production - but I could find an example of a "keeper" song where I hated the lyrics, one with tuning problems, etc. etc. - for me, it really comes down to "given the whole package of this song, is this something I would want to listen to again?"

I'm probably way too sensitive to criticism - and, unfortunately, I've found myself getting worse in that respect the past couple years rather than better. I s'pose the reason I do a lot of hxaro covers is that there are not a lot of harsh critiques done of them... even if the author doesn't like my version as much as their own, they still are generally pleased that somebody took the time to record one of their songs. Instant "mindless praise," and some days, I just need summa that.

Umm... I dunno, I guess I've just been feeling discouraged and depressed about a lot of things lately, and today's my day to bleed in public. My song for "Proud" is in the same vein - honest about how I'm feeling, but not particularly uplifting for the public at large...

Charles (KA)

Post by jb » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:39 am

If you hear a recording that sounds like shite, like a guy with a guitar in front of an sm-57 and an old tape recorder, assume that that's the way that guy wanted it to sound and review accordingly. You know by now, I hope, that this sort of thing is a particular style and that some people like it.

Knocking people on production when it's painfully obvious that they didn't even try is just about the dumbest thing you can do. THE DUMBEST THING.

jb

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:02 am

king_arthur wrote:Umm... I dunno, I guess I've just been feeling discouraged and depressed about a lot of things lately, and today's my day to bleed in public. My song for "Proud" is in the same vein - honest about how I'm feeling, but not particularly uplifting for the public at large...

Charles you are an honest poet and a damn good one. As Lisa on the Simpsons was advised about jazz: "it ain't s'posed to make you feel better. it's s'posed to make everyone else feel WORSE!" And it feels good when it works.

Egg · Post by **Egg** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:10 am

While we're lavishing praise on him, I think King Arthur has to be one of the swellest guys on here. He's just so nice and laidback about the things I want to be nice and laidback about. And he seems genuinely interested in other artists just because they exist and he exists and why not be interested. Ruh ruh to him.

edit: PS- JB's post is spot on in this and the review thread. Let's all use our noggins.

stueym · Post by **stueym** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:19 pm

king_arthur wrote:I'm probably way too sensitive to criticism - and, unfortunately, I've found myself getting worse in that respect the past couple years rather than better. I s'pose the reason I do a lot of hxaro covers is that there are not a lot of harsh critiques done of them... even if the author doesn't like my version as much as their own, they still are generally pleased that somebody took the time to record one of their songs. Instant "mindless praise," and some days, I just need summa that.

K/A similar thoughts drove me away from here for a short hiatus and I haven't submitted anything new since drifiting back....well that plus having a real life/work that's kind of complicated right now biting into creativiity time. Stick with it.

Dan-o....firstly I am glad to see you back even in "rant-o-matic" mode. Much of what you observe I believe to be true also. Why did I drift back?....well I guess I get more from being a community member than not

Maybe we three should do a collab? The BOF Fine Music Trio (Boring Old Farts)

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:10 pm

But you're not boring, Stu.

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:22 pm

frankie big face · Post by **frankie big face** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:51 pm

Dan-O from Five-O wrote:a critical comment almost always elicits a critical response.

It's a long rant and there are many good points, but this is the most poignant and the main reason why I don't post reviews very often. It seems you can't say anything critical about a song no matter how much you think it sucks without having to defend yourself from reactionary whining or (over on somesongs) enduring mass downvoting of all your songs. The result is that everyone now tries to find a "positive" way to couch their negative comments and this is neither helpful or honest. I too find it very hard to believe that so many people are "just glad to have (their) song reviewed" and I don't honestly believe (based on my experience) that people are all that interested in "ideas to improve" as those ideas are usually met with extreme resistance. The fact that so few people have voted for comments on lyric quality, production and musical ability (probably the three most important aspects of any song) probably has more to do with the fact that these items are very specific and can easily be encompassed by a choice like "overall quality." So, in that respect, the poll is flawed. But Dan is right: if you care at all about your song and you think it's good, you're most likely looking for "mindless praise." If you're just starting out, you may be looking for "ideas to improve." And if you've purposely made a big pile of poo, then you most likely want "ruthless harsh comments."

Post by **Lunkhead** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:36 pm

Damn, frankie, you are jaded.

You don't have to defend your reviews any more than people have to defend their songs, though, as I'm sure you already know.

erik · Post by **erik** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:14 pm

Lunkhead wrote:Damn, frankie, you are jaded. You don't have to defend your reviews any more than people have to defend their songs, though, as I'm sure you already know.

Ok, whether or not anyone has to defend their reviews or not is beside the point. Frank's point was that negative comments are often met with reactionary whining, and that kind of reaction makes him not want to do reviews.

Yes, he could ignore them if he wanted to, but it's alot easier to just not do reviews at all if people are going to get all defensive and "oh yeah, well let me hear what YOU can do, mr reviewerpants" about a negative opinion of their song.

stueym · Post by **stueym** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:17 pm

WeaselSlayer wrote:But you're not boring, Stu.

Well maye if I cant be the Boring or the Old I can be the Fart LOL Leave the other two boys to fight over the other titles LOL

.

It does get tiresome when the assembled throng in different guises in different weeks feels they have to 'react' to the critiques offered up. Why do we spend so much time analysing this effect too. Does it really matter? We all have different standards, like/dislikes and I think after a little time here we can also differentiate the quality of reviewing too.

So let's stop getting hung up with the critique of the critique and get back to writing songs (and if you are so inclined) writing reviews.

Post by **Lunkhead** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:45 pm

erik wrote:
Lunkhead wrote:Damn, frankie, you are jaded. You don't have to defend your reviews any more than people have to defend their songs, though, as I'm sure you already know.
Ok, whether or not anyone has to defend their reviews or not is beside the point. Frank's point was that negative comments are often met with reactionary whining, and that kind of reaction makes him not want to do reviews.

Yes, he could ignore them if he wanted to, but it's alot easier to just not do reviews at all if people are going to get all defensive and "oh yeah, well let me hear what YOU can do, mr reviewerpants" about a negative opinion of their song.

I guess I wanted to try to cheekily imply that frankie's comment about whiny reactions to negative reviews was itself bordering on being a whiny reaction to whiny reactions to negative reviews. And the advice about "you don't have to react to it" applies in both cases (as well as to board comments, and replies to board comments, etc.). I think it's too bad, frankie, that you don't feel like doing reviews, because I think you could probably offer some really great feedback. That's your right, though, of course, and I'm not trying to tell you, or anybody, to think/feel/do otherwise than what you are thinking/feeling/doing. Ultimately we are all here to participate however we want, and get whatever we want out of it, and we shouldn't really worry much about what everybody else is doing, I think. Like, for example, I'm not even going to worry about whatever Erik's response to this comment may be, I'm just going to let him have the last word if he so chooses.

j$ · Post by j$ » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:10 am

mkilly wrote:
j$ wrote:What I want from reviews: specific details on how to improve the song. Not 'hey press Alt and f10 in audacity to get the spangulator running'. More 'this could do with a backing vocal at this point.'
To review you have to accept the song and the performance as it's given to you. We're not song doctor executive producers, we're Joes and Janes that dig music.

I am not entirely sure how this follows the comment you quote, positively or negatively. Are you saying that 'lay-people' don't have the right to review about the things they hear they don't like?

If that's the case, I would vehemently disagree. I care much more about someone saying 'I wish there were backing vocals at this point' that someone whittering on about reductive EQ, and me having to explain my set-up doesn't allow for it, blah blah blah. The majority of people listening to music in the world are not producers. They just like music or they don't. That's healthy, normal, and in some cases refreshingly lacking in pretension.

frankie big face · Post by **frankie big face** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:19 am

Lunkhead wrote: I guess I wanted to try to cheekily imply that frankie's comment about whiny reactions to negative reviews was itself bordering on being a whiny reaction to whiny reactions to negative reviews.

Jeez, I didn't think my comment was any more whiny than the rest in this thread, but okay.

Lunkhead wrote:And the advice about "you don't have to react to it" applies in both cases (as well as to board comments, and replies to board comments, etc.).

Yes, of course. The problem is that the reactions are usually in the form of personal attacks on the reviewer. I don't mind if someone says to me "what exactly didn't you like about the lyrics?" If I can explain, I will. But it's the "yeah, well your music sucks too" reaction that drives me crazy. And if it comes with mass downvoting of my songs (again, a somesongs thing--not really valid here I guess), it just makes me question why I would spend so much time listening to these songs and writing reviews.

Lunkhead wrote:I think it's too bad, frankie, that you don't feel like doing reviews, because I think you could probably offer some really great feedback.

Well, that's nice of you to say, but I find my feedback isn't always welcome. Maybe I come off as pedantic--who knows? But I think my feedback is valued the same as everyone else's: if I say your song is great, you love it; if I say it's not, you don't. I'm not jaded, these are my experiences.

Paco Del Stinko · Post by **Paco Del Stinko** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:27 am

Frankie Big Face wrote:I too find it very hard to believe that so many people are "just glad to have (their) song reviewed"

I hope that I don't come across as whiny as that is one thing I don't think I am. However, and I'm not trying to goad anyone on and am sorry to drag this on further, but I genuinely do appreciate all reviews as this is the largest audience I've had/probably will ever have for my songs. I can take it when something I do disagrees with someone, and understand that the old different strokes rule applies to all. Sure, the good reviews are nice, but the bad ones, to me anyway, are just as helpful. Slam away! Not angry or pissy here, just saying. Thanks!

furrypedro · Post by **furrypedro** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:33 am

I have no difficulty believing people just like getting reviews.

Good reviews are lovely, but having somebody openly criticise (fairly, of course) something you've done is not something that happens every day either, and I find it is those comments that are much more useful in life generally, y'know, getting thicker skin and rolling with the punches and all that stuff. I'm sure I reacted worst to my first ever bad review than any I've had since, and that's got more to do with the fact I'm better at handling criticism than I was 8 months ago, because the review probably wasn't that harsh, and being able to handle criticism is something more people in the world could be better at. In fact saying it like that, I've just realised songfight has helped me way more than I thought, in terms of trying to be a well-rounded, level-headed individual.

Going off-topic slightly, I find that being quoted on the boards gives similar feelings as getting reviews. I suppose it just feels good to know somebody is listening that's all.

and speaking of quotes (and I've used this one pretty recently but I think it's relevant here) there's a good line in Jeffrey Lewis' song Don't Let The Record Label Take You Out To Lunch
"Try not to want people to like you too much,
You'll just need more and more flattery to recharge your batteries."

what you take from the review is more important than what you want from it. What if somebody loved your song, but for all the wrong reasons?
I have no conclusion

What do you want from a review on SongFight?

What is most important a review?