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Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:05 am
by AJOwens
What is the best way to collaborate online to create a track?
At the moment I'm trying to add drums. A drummer in another city has offered to help. Our current plan is that I'll mix down what I've got and send him the mix. He'll load it into his recording system, add a drum track, and send me the drum track.
I wanted to send him an MP3, but it seems he needs a WAV (he's new at this too), and that's a pretty large file for email. For now, I've decided to set up a free Dropbox account and then use Firefox FileLink as the intermediary. I gather that Filelink will take my attachment, upload it to Dropbox, and put a link in the email, so that when Keith clicks the link, the attachment will be downloaded from Dropbox. That's my theory anyway. I'm still waiting to hear what's happening at his end. (He's at work.)
Is there a better way to manage long-distance collaborations?
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:27 am
by ujnhunter
The best way is for everyone involved to be using the same software (not 100% necessary but helps immensely). That way you can just use the same project files, and everything is the same for everyone (unless you start using 3rd party plugins, but I'd suggest that you don't start doing that until the "final" mixing stage and that someone takes charge of that).
A shared folder from Dropbox or Google Drive or [insert your favorite cloud storage here] works best as emailing will probably be limited to 25mb files (at most if you're lucky) and won't cut it. Best of luck in your online collaborations. Almost all of my (released) music these days is some sort of online collaboration and I've been doing it for almost 26 years now... it's come a long way from having to use crap like Real Player & WAVZIP(?) and FTPs to send files back and forth.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:26 am
by jast
Side note, there are plenty of web converters from MP3 to WAV, your drummer can just google one and put the MP3 file in there. There are also free tools you can download for doing this, e.g. fre:ac (
https://freac.org).
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:43 am
by Pigfarmer Jr
I would also mention that it's a good idea to have a count in click track that everyone uses to start their recording. But if everyone starts recording at 0:00 then it shouldn't be a problem. I've lined up tracks sent that start at, say the first verse, and it can be a nightmare. I typically use my own storage to link to but google drive is a great option if you already use gmail. If your files are too large it usually will automatically put it on the drive and place a link in the email. Dropbox has been used a lot at FAWM etc., with good results. If you share a folder it's a great way for people to put all the files in when they are finished and everyone has access to download. I think you'll be fine.
The afore mentioned mp3 to wav converter is great if needed for a guide track but remember that the lossy will stay lossy. It's a great option if he's sending you the finished files to mix. If he's doing the mixing then you'll need to find a way to send the wav file.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:02 am
by jb
Yaks:
1. We are all in a Slack channel together
2. We make a Google Doc for lyrics and everybody takes stabs at editing it if they are inspired to, mostly Ken starts a draft
3. To a Google Drive, or Dropbox folder, somebody uploads a sketch of a song and takes a casual poll of who might be up for creating a song around it.
4. Someone volunteers to mix and master-- that person is generally behaving as the "producer" of the track, and is usually also the one who gives the most of a shit about that particular song that week, because they are investing the most time into that one. That role shifts to whoever is inspired or has the time to do it that week. Usually this is whoever made the sketch we started with.
5. Once we are committed to working on that track, we start uploading a series of Versions of our production, each version is Zipped.
6. Usually each version is a Stem export of full-length wav files. We also include MIDI export if someone requests it. Mo often needs it to figure out the chords for doing guitar parts.
7. We announce a new version and what's in it to the Slack channel
8. We export Versions until we think it's done. After everyone has submitted their tracks the mixer keeps submitting versions of mixes. Usually they will just export an MP3 for everyone to listen to and feedback on. No need for Stems at that point.
Mix and Match the above as you see fit.
JB
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:59 am
by fluffy
Splice has a
music collaboration thing (basically dropbox for DAWs), although I've never used it and can't speak to how well it works. I do know that it imposes some restrictions on the project in terms of which plugins you can use (since obviously not all DAWs have the same plugins available) and I wouldn't really trust that sort of automated convert-and-sync thing to work reliably.
Whenever I collaborate with folks it's always pretty much how JB described the Yaks model. Have some sort of live chat on Discord or Slack, have a shared document for lyrics and a shared drive for stems, and there's one person handling the arrangement/mixing and everyone else records against the master arrangement.
Also, it's worth mentioning specifically that when participants provide stems, they should be in a lossless format such as wav or flac; compression artifacts have a nasty way of stacking up VERY quickly and becoming audible and annoying (and then causing even more artifacts when the final mix gets compressed).
Oh and speaking of compression, the other sort should also be avoided on the stems. Ideally the stems that folks provide should be as close to a raw recording as possible.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:00 am
by Lunkhead
AJOwens wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:05 am
I wanted to send him an MP3, but it seems he needs a WAV (he's new at this too), and that's a pretty large file for email. For now, I've decided to set up a free Dropbox account and then use Firefox FileLink as the intermediary. I gather that Filelink will take my attachment, upload it to Dropbox, and put a link in the email, so that when Keith clicks the link, the attachment will be downloaded from Dropbox. That's my theory anyway. I'm still waiting to hear what's happening at his end. (He's at work.)
Every file storage service has built-in ways to share links to files to people via email, or at least, Dropbox and Google Drive definitely do, and that seems like a very basic function that ought to be pretty in any such service. You shouldn't need to use any additional tools other than the file storage service itself, as far as I'm aware.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:04 am
by Lunkhead
I wrote this up years ago for BSS collaboration purposes:
Guidelines for sending tracks to the person that is mixing the song.
Recording
Please tune your instrument! (To A=440Hz!) For vocals, please use a pop filter/wind screen. Check if your track clipped when you recorded it. If so, re-record it so that there is no clipping.
Sample Rate
Please at least export at the mixer’s preferred sample rate. Try to record at this sample rate also, or higher (but NOT lower).
Bit Depth
Please at least export at the mixer’s preferred bit depth. Try to record at this bit depth also, or higher (but NOT lower).
Stereo Vs. Mono
Typically everything but drums should be recorded in mono and should be exported in mono. Only export in stereo if there was meaningful stereo information in the original recording, or if you have applied stereo effects to a track that you want to have preserved in the mix.
File Format
Uncompressed (.wav or FLAC) format is preferred, shared over Google Drive. If using a lossy compressed format like mp3 at least choose a high bit-rate (e.g. 256-320kbps).
Track Length
Generally speaking, export a full length track that e.g. matches the demo you were sent. (Just exporting pieces/sections actually makes it harder to line up your tracks.)
If you can include the original stick clicks, or add in some clicks at the beginning if there were no original stick clicks, that can make it easier to line up your tracks. Make sure not to have the click overlap at all with your part though. (You may want to just include the first three clicks, for example.)
Effects
Generally speaking, export your track without any effects. Don’t forget to disable effects on your master bus too!
If you have very specific effects you want to use on your track, though, record and/or apply them and include them in your export.
Miscellaneous
Be editorial about your parts. The trade off to passing the editorial buck to the mixer is that, while they have more options, they also have more decisions to make and more work to do in editing down your parts.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:05 am
by jast
Lunkhead wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:00 am
Every file storage service has built-in ways to share links to files to people via email, or at least, Dropbox and Google Drive definitely do, and that seems like a very basic function that ought to be pretty in any such service. You shouldn't need to use any additional tools other than the file storage service itself, as far as I'm aware.
Correct. You can copy/upload something to Dropbox / Google Drive / OneDrive / ... and then get a share link from it which you just put in an email or whatever.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:09 am
by fluffy
Lunkhead wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:00 am
AJOwens wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:05 am
I wanted to send him an MP3, but it seems he needs a WAV (he's new at this too), and that's a pretty large file for email. For now, I've decided to set up a free Dropbox account and then use Firefox FileLink as the intermediary. I gather that Filelink will take my attachment, upload it to Dropbox, and put a link in the email, so that when Keith clicks the link, the attachment will be downloaded from Dropbox. That's my theory anyway. I'm still waiting to hear what's happening at his end. (He's at work.)
Every file storage service has built-in ways to share links to files to people via email, or at least, Dropbox and Google Drive definitely do, and that seems like a very basic function that ought to be pretty in any such service. You shouldn't need to use any additional tools other than the file storage service itself, as far as I'm aware.
Yeah there shouldn't be any reason to use both FileLink and Dropbox; both of those services individually do all of the things necessary.
Nextcloud is a self-hosted option if you want to go that route. But there's no real reason to.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:55 pm
by jb
If you try to get everything right you won’t get anything out.
You should be able to send him an MP3 to record to. His DAW will automatically convert on import— I don’t know of a DAW that doesn’t.
Then he can send you the drum tracks as separate tracks, WAV files, via Dropbox. You can even give him an “upload here” Dropbox request.
Personally it’s easier to use Google Drive. You get 10G for free, plenty for songs, and you can just both share access to the drive and swap stuff back and forth.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:44 pm
by Lunkhead
Side note: If you used a click track, don't forget to let your collaborators know what tempo you used, so they can set a matching tempo in their DAW.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:45 pm
by fluffy
Also it's a good idea to include the click and/or placeholder drums in the demo track.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:13 am
by AJOwens
Thanks everyone, this is a gold mine!
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:33 am
by ken
fluffy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:45 pm
Also it's a good idea to include the click and/or placeholder drums in the demo track.
I disagree with at least part of this. As a drummer, the last thing I want to track to is some other drum track.
I agree that you should include at least a stable click intro that can be used to line up your file to the new DAW's grid. I've noticed over the years that different DAW's add a different amount of space before the start of a file, so when I collect tracks from different people, they do not all have the same zero/starting point. This is super frustrating. I've learned to line things up visually, but even that doesn't always work. But I digress...
I was going to add to this conversation, that as a guy who often tracks drums for others remotely, I appreciate stems over mixes. I'd rather load up three different tracks (say vocals, guitar, and bass) and be able to mix or isolate parts as needed than a mix of the three where I can't hear what the bass is doing over an overly loud and less well timed scratch vocal. As a drummer, I want to lock my kick to the bass, so I need to be able to hear it clearly for example.
There's my 2 cents. I agree with a lot of what was said above. I also had the experience where I was working on a project and one of the band members unexpectedly went to a studio to do some work and I had to get on the phone with the engineer to explain to him that he had to rip the mix from the CD before he could import it into his DAW. I think the point of this story is never assume other people know what they are doing. Oh, and always expect stereo files for mono sources no matter how many times you explain that it isn't necessary and a waste of data.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:19 am
by fluffy
That’s a good point. Providing versions with and without placeholder drums would be better, and fully aligned stems would be best so that contributors can build whatever mix they want.
Personally I find it easier to keep time with (very simple) placeholder drums in place even when I’m drumming, but that’s definitely not universal.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:25 am
by Lunkhead
I've noticed over the years that different DAW's add a different amount of space before the start of a file, so when I collect tracks from different people, they do not all have the same zero/starting point.
Oh yeah, that is super annoying. I think we've had that happen a lot specifically when exchanging stems between Cubase and at least GarageBand, if not also Logic? Cubase exports start exactly from the starting marker whereas I think at least GarageBand exports start with some leading silence. That's why we settled on including some leading clicks in both the reference tracks and the tracks folks send to the person mixing, to make it easier to visually line things up if that winds up being necessary.
Another pet peeve of mine when I'm doing a track for somebody is when they send me a "mastered" reference track, as usually those are so loud I can't really hear what is going on in the song. Leave your mastering/limiting disabled on your main outputs when exporting a reference for someone else to track to.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:32 pm
by fluffy
Logic doesn’t add a pregap automatically. Not sure about GarageBand.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:41 pm
by jb
Logic does have a feature where you can add some time BEFORE the 1 of your song, and you can on occasion accidentally make that happen and I think that will f-up your stems accordingly because the space before the 1 is to accommodate like, a pickup note or somesuch. I've had to drag that timeline thingy back a few times to get rid of it when collaborating. It's a feature that doesn't line up with other DAWs so you have to be aware of it.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:21 pm
by Lunkhead
My guess about it was that it was trying to always export starting from silence, even if you had e.g. put your start marker somewhere where some track had non-zero samples on either side. That was just speculation though.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:44 pm
by fluffy
jb wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:41 pm
Logic does have a feature where you can add some time BEFORE the 1 of your song, and you can on occasion accidentally make that happen and I think that will f-up your stems accordingly because the space before the 1 is to accommodate like, a pickup note or somesuch. I've had to drag that timeline thingy back a few times to get rid of it when collaborating. It's a feature that doesn't line up with other DAWs so you have to be aware of it.
Ah, true, I usually have to go out of my way to activate that and get annoyed when I forget to.
Re: Online collaboration technologies
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:11 pm
by gizo
I just share my entire Logic projects with Toshiro and Crumpet. Let them see my substantial warts and farts.
We use some point-to-point sync tool rather than anything g cloudy. Dunno why.