Karl Rove

jack · Post by **jack** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:42 pm

is a lying sack of shit.

put your money where your mouth is Dubya and fire him.

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:07 pm

Karl Rove a liar?? really??
I am so surprised, I mean he takes part in that great bastion of the truth (politics), doesnt he??
Well I leave this thread, shocked and stunned.
I mean a politition telling lies----I just cant believe it.

Just trying out some sarcasm on the internet...see if it really does get mis-interperated

jack · Post by **jack** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:16 pm

martha stewart lied and went to jail. for far less than what he's lied about.

quid pro quo.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:18 am

jack wrote:martha stewart lied and went to jail. for far less than what he's lied about.

quid pro quo.

What's he lied about now?

(brief summary or link please?)

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:10 am

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8545657/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162227,00.html

(I like the 2nd one 'cause it's FOX news ... Anti-Bush Administration stories on FOX mean Rove's really in trouble.)

j$ · Post by j$ » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:09 am

NBC's Tim Russell looks like he's swallowed an owl.

j$

mico saudad · Post by **mico saudad** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:09 pm

Down in flames! He is the embodiment of everything Orwellian. Our country will be so much the better for having him gone.

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:38 pm

According to Molly Ivins, Karl Rove built George W. Bush. If you want Rove fired, don't get your hopes up- he'd probably sooner divorce Laura. My money says Bush will only give him the boot if the Republican congress raises such a stink that Karl Rove himself advises him to do it.

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:31 pm

i completely agree with you henrietta. there's no way bush fires rove. absolutely no way. of course that makes him a lying sack of shit as well, but most of us already knew that anyways.

add one more lie to the bush legacy.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:50 am

The point isn't to actually fire Rove (though it would be nice). The point is to call for it until our lungs are sore, because it's probably the most just move at this point. And it won't happen. That's almost as good as if it did.

Besides, Karl Rove is basically Obi Wan Kenobi. If you fire him, he will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine. Okay, maybe not quite, but keep in mind that an unofficial position up the president's bum is nearly as good as an official one.

My money says Bush will only give him the boot if the Republican congress raises such a stink that Karl Rove himself advises him to do it.

Let's not hold our breath. The current media balance is such that pretty much anyone in the establishment has plausible deniability toward anything, if not in fact, then at least in the public eye. Watergate could happen today with very little backlash on the party. Every complaint, even the most legitimate, can somehow be characterized as biased spin. It's amazing, really. I remember people laughed about how Clinton was bulletproof by the end of his terms, but there's really no comparison. Something legitimate could have shot him down, but there's nothing short of a serious murder allegation that could put Bush into strong popular disfavor among his base. He's like some kind of Protestant American Pope at this point.

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:12 am

Here's a well-written primer on the whole affair: http://www.defectiveyeti.com/archives/001356.html

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:46 am

abecedarian wrote:Down in flames! He is the embodiment of everything Orwellian. Our country will be so much the better for having him gone.

Orwellian. Thats an interesting word

Welcome to Oceania people. Who's our enemy today? Eurasia or Eastasia? Osama Bin Goldstein is still at large - time for the 3-minute-hate.

Old George will be chuckling in his grave. All animals are equal - but some are more equal than others

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:20 am

Dude, what was that, a medley?

It's only moderately accurate. Big Scary Government as Orwell saw it failed to account for the stupidity of man and the general inability of more than three people to ever agree on anything at once. Hanlon's razor comes to mind. Calling bad government Orwellian is giving it an awful lot of credit (unless, of course, you're being atypical and referring to Animal Farm, heh).

From what I can see, Rove is a master of politics. He turned an fish-tongued upper-class nitwit into a somehow-charismatic demagogue, and helped to reorganize events most favorable to the party into those that were topical. But really, he's just a tool--not a tool of effective government, but a tool of effective politics. All he can win for the Republicans is an election.

mico saudad · Post by **mico saudad** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:51 am

Moderately accurate? Dude. An Orwellian government is all about bending and spinning objective truth and engaging in any means necessary to suit the designs of those in power. There is nothing moderate in Rove's, and this government's, inclination to do that. The only thing that currently prevents our entire government from being completely perverted are the checks and balances. That doesn't mean that an entire branch of government can't be perfectly well described as Orwellian.

On a side note, where is the outrage over lack of transparency in our government. Why do we accept that people in power hide the truth or lie to us. Are we only allowed to demand the truth when we have dmaning proof of corruption? The majority of Americans believe that Bush has deceived us about many things, but where is the outrage?

You guys are right though on second thought, no way Rove's getting fired. I'm way to optimistic about damning proof coming out and burning him alive.

He may not be a traitor for leaking the name of a CIA agent, but he is worse than a traitor for selling out the basic values of a democracy and then running a government that claims morality. All with a knowing smirk towards the bewildered herd. It makes me want to vomit.

Post by jb » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:05 pm

abecedarian wrote:On a side note, where is the outrage over lack of transparency in our government. Why do we accept that people in power hide the truth or lie to us. Are we only allowed to demand the truth when we have dmaning proof of corruption? The majority of Americans believe that Bush has deceived us about many things, but where is the outrage?

I think most people aren't bothered by the secrecy because if it's not in their face they don't have to think about it. Those who are bothered by a lack of transparency will always be in the minority because of this tendency.

It's almost (but not quite) like a parent whose daughter comes home in the morning in a wrinkled, torn prom dress. "Where have you been!? Wait, don't tell me, I don't want to know." The twist is that the government is more like the parent. Or maybe it's like a spouse who lets the other partner handle all the finances.

In any case, that's my theory. They don't care about not knowing because they don't *want* to know in the *first* place.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:30 pm

I agree that people don't want to know, but I'd say that most of the time it's not because they're afraid of the consequences (as in the prom dress example) so much as because they'd just rather not have to think about it. Given a simple, relatively happy answer and one more realistic, more complicated, somewhat darker, I think people tend to go for the former.

On top of that, you've got a large portion of the population that approves of the deception, whether overtly or otherwise, whether recognized even to themselves, and considers it valuable as a means to an end.

As for Orwell, Big Brother was deceptive, sure, and so is the administration--but then most government is, in some way or another. Some forms of deception are pretty benign, and others are pretty nasty. My main dispute with the 1984 comparison (aside from the cliche) is that we're dealing with a disorganized group whose main purpose is self-perpetuation. That's where 1984 fails as a work of political fiction: everything is incredibly, incredibly perfect. Deterministic. The real world isn't so fond of perpetual motion machines, and there's no perfect, sinister autocracy.

One thing I said may not be accurate: the people in power are very concerned with self-preservation of the establishment, but a good many probably have some misguided sense of righteousness. I guess whoever was really in charge in Orwell's universe probably had similar motivations, just as Stalin and Hitler surely did (not to make any overly-deep comparisons, thanks). Maybe what I really dispute is the comic-sinister impression left whenever talking about "Orwellian politics". Everyone has his own spin; these guys are just a bit less than tactful in the implementation. If you can see through it, it's probably not that Orwellian.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:08 pm

1984 was a satire. What is disturbing is that much of the political climate that prompted him to write that is still with us today.
If George was still around, he'd now be sewing up a movie deal for "1984 - The Next Generation"

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:45 pm

was watching a stupid morning debate show this morning and the republicans have already effectively blocked Rove from this bullet. Apparently no law was broken in reference to the identity leak of the special agent. It, and I'm only going by the argument given (and without homework), isn't illegal to reveal the identity of an agent if they are not overseas or something. Agent had been back in mainland USA for five years so there was no risk or danger.

Move on, nothing to see here...moooooooOOOOOoooooo

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:17 pm

I heard Karl Rove likes to poop and then smell his own poop.

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:27 pm

WeaselSlayer wrote:I heard Karl Rove likes to poop and then smell his own poop.

well, apparently dubya's nickname for him is "turd blossom"

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:43 pm

Cuz he sniffs it like a rose.

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:47 pm

a "turd blossom" is apparently a flower that grows out of cow patties in texas.

texans sure have dumb nicknames for each other.