Science + Politics = ?

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:54 am

Poor June wrote:
Paco Del Stinko wrote:
Poor June wrote:it almost to me seems more like 'de-evolution'
Q: Are we not men?
we are men
but poorly fed information
is still poorly fed information

and when that isn't questioned then mere perception is skewed
and has no real stand outside of general concepts
in other words
we're stuck in a rut

A: We are Poor June

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:31 am

Poor June wrote:
well basic's are important... but if you don't question the basic structure of learning... it doesn't change... we have come to the conclusion that we know all there is to know...

Uh... no. In biology the biggest thing my teacher stressed was that it was all changing. Things that she learned in high school 10 years ago and college a few years ago are no longer true. History is history, you're going to have a bias view pointed whichever way. Languages are languages. Life is life. Of course we don't know everything, no one can, and I don't think humans are stupid enough to think that. You can only learn what you have the capacity to learn.

I really don't think a government is trying to cull us educationally. But then maybe I've already been brainwashed, I'm sure it all started when we learned phonetics in first school. Damn you Letterland!

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:59 am

Bjam wrote:
Poor June wrote:
well basic's are important... but if you don't question the basic structure of learning... it doesn't change... we have come to the conclusion that we know all there is to know...

I really don't think a government is trying to cull us educationally. But then maybe I've already been brainwashed, I'm sure it all started when we learned phonetics in first school. Damn you Letterland!

they've culled us in so many other ways, why not educationally?

(you didn't understand... i know that things have changed in the last few years... but not in how they are being taught... things are still taught as 'fact'... and not so much as theory... it could be a whole lot better)

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:02 pm

Poor June wrote:
they've culled us in so many other ways, why not educationally?

(you didn't understand... i know that things have changed in the last few years... but not in how they are being taught... things are still taught as 'fact'... and not so much as theory... it could be a whole lot better)

And what I'm saying is that when I learn stuff in science class, it is theory. They keep saying, "This is what we know, but it'll probably change when your kids are in school" and "This is what should happen, but stuff might change and in 20 years it could be completely different". It's factual at the time of teaching, but everyone is taught that it will change. I go to a perfectly normal public government-run school. So you're just kinda making up BS in that last statement that education is being taught to "us" only as fact and not theory.

But I won't change your mind, so ah well. Education, schemeducation.

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:49 pm

Bjam wrote:
Poor June wrote:
they've culled us in so many other ways, why not educationally?

(you didn't understand... i know that things have changed in the last few years... but not in how they are being taught... things are still taught as 'fact'... and not so much as theory... it could be a whole lot better)
And what I'm saying is that when I learn stuff in science class, it is theory. They keep saying, "This is what we know, but it'll probably change when your kids are in school" and "This is what should happen, but stuff might change and in 20 years it could be completely different". It's factual at the time of teaching, but everyone is taught that it will change. I go to a perfectly normal public government-run school. So you're just kinda making up BS in that last statement that education is being taught to "us" only as fact and not theory.

But I won't change your mind, so ah well. Education, schemeducation.

i'm not only talking about 'science'... i'm talking about many things...
perception is really key to understanding anything.. that's why so many societies run by different rules and laws of facts and theory...
so in all reality... none of it is pure 'fact'... it's all really good theories...

education is taught to us in a way, where it's talking down...
i always felt patronized personally... for the fact that it sounds rediculuous most times...
it's saying 'this is it'... and a test score tells you that you've answered how 'they' want you 2...
which pretty much means they are getting you into the habit... of memorizing a theory... so you will stick to this theory...
wether proved wrong or right... it's hard to see past... cause we spend so many years drilling it into our skulls... you are proof of this. . . .

i'm not saying education is 'bad'... i'm saying that how it is directed is highly questionable...
there is no open answers to any quiz... you're answers must be 'this'... you see what i'm saying?

you are not graded on your open thought... you are graded by how well you guess their answers...
woop woop... this means we've become good little doggies

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:46 pm

I quit boy scouts when they told me to sit down in a canoe.

fodroy · Post by **fodroy** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:20 pm

Poor June wrote: woop woop... this means we've become good little doggies

dogs go "woof," not "woop."

jesus christ... didn't you...
go to kindergarten..

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:57 pm

fodroy wrote:
Poor June wrote: woop woop... this means we've become good little doggies
dogs go "woof," not "woop."

jesus christ... didn't you...
go to kindergarten..

I always found it kind of sad when people pick something stupid to dwell on rather than supporting their arguments with facts. Grammar has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. But, since you brought it up, all grammar is, is a collection of symbols that most of us agree to interpretate in a certain way. Obviously, I don't agree. . .

Listen, first of all every single person in the USA (including the native americans because unlike the english language that we all so readily accept tells us, the NATIVE americans came from Asia) is here because an ancester of their's immigrated from somewhere else looking to buy into an idea. "The land of the free" Well how free do you think we are when at the age of 18, all of our males have to literally sign their lives over to the government in case it decides a War is more important than their life? Don't you think we owe it to our forefathers to make this place the absolute best it can be? Even the settlers that founded this country came here from England which was at the time the power of the world. Hmm, power of the world. . . sound familiar? Had those settlers had YOUR mentality, America wouldn't exist because they would have blindly believed what they were told. Wanna take a guess why there's always money for WAR but never money for EDUCATION? Don't worry I'll tell ya. . . because they don't want us to be smart. If we were truly educated rather than subjected to YEARS of government sponsered babysitting, we might actually grow the brains to want to change some shit. That is, and has always been a threat to the powers that be. Take a look at all the bums on the streets, the babies without mothers, the PEOPLE who are dying in our hospitals because they won't allow us to use what will fix them, the CHILDREN sent to Iraq to die because America is so perfect that they have to fix everywhere else in the world. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about anything or shake what they hold dear to their hearts. I simply implore you to do the research and TRY to see another perspective before you come bashing me. Do you think the indiginous people of New Guinea give a fuck about how powerful the U.S.A thinks they are? Hell no. . . They eat to live, fuck for the survival of the species, (like EVERY other creature on the planet) and raise their own god damn babies. Oh wait, I forgot, they're heathens because they don't give their government peices of paper every month for electricity. . . THAT IS WHAT'S IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roymond: I would have joined the boy scouts but I had to BUY equipment to be in it. Cause god knows S'mores are oh so vital to wilderness survival.

Denyer · Post by **Denyer** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:33 pm

Poor June wrote:
fodroy wrote:
Poor June wrote: woop woop... this means we've become good little doggies
dogs go "woof," not "woop."

jesus christ... didn't you...
go to kindergarten..
I always found it kind of sad when people pick something stupid to dwell on rather than supporting their arguments with facts.

BUT THAR NO FACKS IS ONLY THEORREIES!!!

Denyer · Post by **Denyer** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:58 pm

I GO 2 AMERCAN HIS STORY IN SCHOOL THEY SAY ME WHO DISCOVER AMERCA I TELL THEM GEORGE WASHERTON THEY SAY NO IT CRISTOFER COLUMBO THAT THERE FEORY NOT MINE I SHOULD NOT HAV FAILED. THEY TRY PUSH "FACT" ON EVERY STUPENT THEY WANT US BELEVE THAT I BELEVE WANT I WANT AND IF THEY TRY TELL ME WRONG I VOTE JOHN KERRIE 2004 ELECTOR.

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:39 pm

Poor June wrote:i'm not only talking about 'science'... i'm talking about many things...

i'm pretty sure this discussion belongs in the "many things + politics = ?" thread.

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:12 pm

That's right. . . and because there are only theories and no facts don't you think we should be open to exploring alternative realities rather than blindly following what they shove down our throats?

Denyer · Post by **Denyer** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:40 pm

No I think we should stop being hippy faggots and stop making excuses for being dumb.

Denyer · Post by **Denyer** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:08 am

I think you are too stupid to know how anything works, so you came up with some bullshit theory about how no one knows how anything works and they only have ideas (which shouldn't be sold as facts because facts don't exist). This will make you feel better about yourself by putting you on the same level as people who are actually smarter than you. It's like when Rone says he is experimental and doesn't want to make music like everyone else, instead of admitting that he has no talent and doesn't know how to make a proper song. This theory about how theories are shoved down our throats as facts, is then shoved down our throats, by you, as fact. Go out and kill someone and see if the jury accepts that anti-murder laws are just theories and anyone is free to come up with their own theories and murder accordingly. In Poor June's America, they could.

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:38 pm

So first you pick something stupid to focus on instead of posing an alternate theory, then you resort to simple name calling. . . Anything to get out of a rational debate huh? How am I a hippy or a 'f aggot'? Because I'm a fighter for a better America? Then I guess by your standards every soldier in the country is a hippy 'f aggot'. . . I never sold anything as a fact. . . the only fact is I tried to get you to see another "perspective". I even said flat out "I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about anything or shake what they hold dear to their hearts." So how am I shoving anything down your throat? Who said anything about killing anyone? Even beyond that though, since when are laws more than just imaginary rules that humans carry out punishments to? I do believe however that in America people should be FREE to come up with their own theories. . . For instance the theory that some crazy white people came up with called the abolishment of slavery. . .Because before that everyone was so sure that because america said so, it was alright to keep humans as property. . . . Don't you? The most patriotic man in the country will fight for the country to be the best it absolutely can be rather than following some piss ant dude with a title that wants to piss on you and tell you it's raining. . . . keep in mind, the Nazi's had all the German people believing they were absolutely 100% right about everything as well.

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:45 pm

uh...not all the German people. But otherwise good defense. Next witness...

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:47 pm

roymond wrote:uh...not all the German people. But otherwise good defense. Next witness...

yea you're right, not all
but a whole lot, lol

Denyer · Post by **Denyer** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:39 pm

Every country needs order. If you don't want to follow the rules of our country then go to one where you don't have to follow rules, because our's are working very well and aren't going to change.

Not every soldier in (or from) the country is a hippy handsome fellow. Most of them are not fighting for a better America. They are fighting for the current America. You are not fighting for a better America. You are fighting for an America where we are not educated and where we are free to make our own rules. There are parts of America already like this. You are fighting to turn the rest of America into the small places we keep locked away to hide our racial minorities. America voted for a leader. That man speaks for America because we chose him to. If you don't like it, you are outnumbered. America is a democracy. We all get a say. More would say no to your ideas than would say yes.

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:54 pm

Poor June wrote:I do believe however that in America people should be FREE to come up with their own theories

I daresay we all agree with you on this point, PJ.

But I suspect we also agree it would be foolish to suggest, for example, a new theory of gravity that states "things fall up." There are facts, and then there are FACTS, ya know what I mean?

I get where you're coming from with the "reality is perception" argument. For a lot of things in life, viewpoint is everything, and I agree with you that it's a shame more people don't grok this. But let me briefly take issue with a couple of your comments:

Poor June wrote:so in all reality... none of it is pure 'fact'... it's all really good theories

Poor June wrote:because there are only theories and no facts don't you think we should be open to exploring alternative realities rather than blindly following what they shove down our throats?

At the risk of sounding pedantic: Theories are the statements and principles we provide to explain facts. If you accept that there are theories, then you're also admitting that there are facts these theories attempt to explain.

I know that seems like sematics, but the distinction between "theories" and "facts" is lost on a lot of folks. It's the fundamental misunderstanding that gave rise to the issue at the start of this thread. And while I'm not saying you've made the same mistake, I do think you might benefit from reconsidering the difference.

The alternate realities you suggested we should be explore, they're still constrained by some immutable facts. (Like "things fall down.") We can propose all the theories we want, but if a theory doesn't explain the facts it addresses, what's the point? And as trite as it sounds, that's the reason school is the way it is. Without memorization of facts, we're simply not qualified to offer new theories.

Further, our learning-by-following approach teaches us about theories that have already been proven false. Yes, we should all be free to come up with our own theories. But should we be free to propose "new" theories that have long-ago been invalidated? Should I be free to waste your time with my "things fall up" theory?

Theories in the absense of background learning yield stuff like the Time Cube.

So yeah, the system sucks (a lot, for some people.) But it's there for a damn good reason. And at the end of the day, which sucks worse: School? Or being the Time Cube guy?

Poor June wrote:which means absolutely no issues among the masses... so any real big change becomes near to impossible... to me... it seems like a waste to train yourself to fit in... cause it only gets you stuck in the way things are

I get the sense you've spent a lot of time reading (or at least contemplating) some Eastern philosophies. You might also enjoy studying a little evolutionary psychology (or sociobiology .. whatever the hell they're calling it this week.) They compliment eachother really well. One teaches why we are the way we are, the other teaches how to live with the condition.

And as it relates to your comment above: It turns out we're hard-wired to "fit in." We're hard-wired to get stuck. In all likelihood, the only reason our species exists at all is because of these tendencies.

If you want real empowerment, recognize this, accept it, and work within its limits. Working to change the tendencies themselves is a little like working to make things fall up.

Reist · Post by **Reist** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:16 pm

Amen brother!

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:22 pm

Denyer: In your case, I am going to be responsible enough to just give up with you. You've obviously completely missed my entire point. Furthermore I don't associate with people who agree that "racial minorities" should be locked away and forgotten, much less one that actually believes that america voted for our leader. (electoral college?) My best guess would be you couldn't actually come up with any decent responses because you didn't understand what I was saying and it angered you. I understand and forgive you. . . But don't expect anymore responses on this subject.

Deshead: Before I address anything else that you said I'd like to just thank you for actually taking the time to spell out a very rational response. I'd also like to say to everyone who's been reading this post that I'd rather have someone disprove any one of my theories with a valid argument than engage in a mudslinging contest. Now, I apologize for not wording the whole gravity thing correctly, I was just talking about people in general. Because we more or less fit into a system, a very well thought up system. Not necessarily a 'good' one, in my opinion, we've learned how to take many differences and mold it into the same person times millions a whole society of people that don't think for themselves. I feel as though the government has gotten the best of us, by using our own human instincts to guide us into their directions, for their own personal gains. Many things really do not add up as a society. When I fight theories, i'm not just fighting every theory like 'gravity', i'm fighting an idea we've based our lives around for no real apparent reason. Other then that's what we've been told is 'best.' in your words more of an eastern philosophy not so much a 'facts playing game' facts are funny. . . they aren't the same for everyone. . .

Denyer · Post by **Denyer** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:34 pm

Poor June wrote:Furthermore I don't associate with people who agree that "racial minorities" should be locked away and forgotten

I didn't say they should, I said that's what happens. Though I do think it is a good thing since I can avoid them easily.