soundtrack

millertime83 · Post by **millertime83** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:41 pm

If anyone has some music they want to get heard and would to contribute to a feature length motion picture we are working on, please email me.

mail@cornerpocketproductiosn.com

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:54 pm

millertime83 wrote:contribute

Do you mean this in the sense that you will not be paying people?

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:37 pm

i've got a song that will fit that concept PERFECTLY! just umm... maybe if i had some more details about what the concept actually was... or any details whatsoever... people might be more inclined to have some kind of interest in your project.

unless you're just collecting email addresses for another songfight spamming campaign?

c hack · Post by **c hack** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:41 pm

Everybody has music they would like to get heard, and most of us will let you use it for free. How about YOU listen to our music, and email or pm US if you find something you want to use. Much easier that way.

j$ · Post by j$ » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:58 pm

Well, s/he's a FilmFighter, so at least there's thematic continuity ... haven't watched the latest though

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:36 pm

15-16 puzzle wrote:
millertime83 wrote:contribute
Do you mean this in the sense that you will not be paying people?

You should see the agreement he wanted me & yook to sign when he wanted to show the short film that used the omphaloskepsis track as backing at some film festival. It claimed that we were 'employees' who had written the song as 'independant contractors' of Corner Pocket Productions, which was of course bollocks.

Here's a quote from it:

Employer or its assigns may add lyrics in any language, and otherwise add to, subtract from, arrange, rearrange, revise and adapt all such material and the Picture in any manner, and Composer hereby waives the "moral rights" of authors, as said term is commonly understood throughout the world.

I would be careful dealing with these folks.

millertime83 · Post by **millertime83** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:33 pm

Everybody has music they would like to get heard, and most of us will let you use it for free. How about YOU listen to our music, and email or pm US if you find something you want to use. Much easier that way.

I've done that before, and you see the reaction we get. . .

Obsurity, I'm sorry I am not a lawyer and did not write the agreement, someone on Filmfights gave it to me. I even apologized to you that the wording was too broad. We contacted an entertainment lawyer to find a contract that gave us what we were asking for, permission to use your song in our video. The video was going to be entered in a contest videomaker magazine was having, and we needed written permission to use the song. You told us we had permission to use the song through email. We were not making money off of it, and did not realize the message I would recieve from you would be "F*ck off".

I am not sure why some of the members of the songfight community are so hostile.

I'm going to be sticking with myspace and purevolume bands from now on if this is the reaction I get.

I can't imagine a member of songfight posting on the filmfights boards and getting smashed like this.

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:43 pm

millertime83 wrote:We were not making money off of it, and did not realize the message I would recieve from you would be "F*ck off".

That was not the message you recieved from me. I have never been afraid to say fuck when I mean it.

millertime83 · Post by **millertime83** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:00 pm

I'm sorry this required you to resort to using expletives.

There seems to be some misunderstanding. We are interested in entering the short movie "Don't Mind Me" that you had given us permission over email to use into the Video Maker Magazine short movie contest. Video Maker requries: Written proof of copyright must be included with the entry for all materials, audio and video, used in production. Written proof must be a document signed by the copyright holder giving the videographer, by name, explicit permission to use the soecuak material.

I have attached a revised form that specifies rights more throughouly. That first film synch. form was too broad, and applied more for contracted musical scoring. I hope you forgive us for seeming "unprofessional" in how we went about doing this. This new form spells out that it only gives us the rights to have your song, "Stand in the Circle" play with our short movie "Don't Mind Me". Thank you for your time, and let me know if you find this agreeable. If you would like, I could fax you the form, or you could fax it to us. If that is not possible, we can mail you a self addressed stamped envelope with the form in it. Thank you for your consideration, and sorry for any misunderstanding.

-Brad Miller
cornerpocketproductions.com

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:15 pm

What you asked for in your email - permision to use the song as soundtrack for you film - was entirely reasonable, and would have been granted without a second thought (and, in fact, had already been granted).

But what matters isn't what your email asked for, it's what the agreement you asked me to sign says, and that can be summed up pretty much as 'bend over, and lube up'.

I mean, just scroll up and read what the damned thing said. Would you not feel at all insulted if someone expected you to be stupid enough to sign such a thing? And not only that, but blatently misrepresenting how the song came to be written - not as a song for songfight, but by a couple of 'employees' of yours, as some kind of work for hire - was dishonest. You wanted me to sign my name to a lie that would have robbed me of any moral rights I had to the song. I wouldn't sign such an agreement for someone waving large cheques in my face, let alone for nothing.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:31 pm

millertime83 wrote:I am not sure why some of the members of the songfight community are so hostile.

Are you referring to another thread? Everyone in this one has been quite civil. Well, maybe not obscurity, but I'd be pissy too, if I found an e-mail in my inbox that contained this:

some entertainment lawyer wrote:Employer or its assigns may add lyrics in any language, and otherwise add to, subtract from, arrange, rearrange, revise and adapt all such material and the Picture in any manner, and Composer hereby waives the "moral rights" of authors, as said term is commonly understood throughout the world.

Telling someone that you get to change or adapt their music in any way is asking alot. You could make fart noises all over it. You could add a track of screaming over it. You could mix the vocals down really low, and then provide some sort of "directors commentary" style ramblings about how the guy who made this track is a complete tool. And the phrase "composer hereby waives the moral rights of authors" makes it sound like YOU own the rights to the song now.

Your contract sounds like something that people have to sign who play riffs at Guitar Center in order to try and get into Limp Bizkit; it's way broad and one-sided.

Post by jb » Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:43 pm

Songfighters do it for the love. When something threatens to impose commerce upon our art, we get testy. When something looks like it'll corrupt our art, regardless of the merits of our art in the first place, we get testy.

The dude sounds like the first contract was an honest mistake. Even if it wasn't, obscurity has proven to be too on-the-ball to fall for it. Either way... *shrug*

But really, the way this stuff should work is that you hear something by someone and ask permission to use it. If you got a bad reaction once, try again. We're reasonable people. Otherwise, you should listen to people's stuff and ask those who appeal to you if they'd look at footage and make something to suit. At the same time, set their expectations properly-- if you don't like what they came up with you're under no compulsion to use it.

I certainly can't speak for everyone, but all that I'd require to allow my music to be used in a piece would be an agreement allowing you to use my piece in your piece and nowhere else. Some editing would be naturally needed to fit the needs of film/TV. I'm sure there's a bunch of good boilerplate around somewhere for this purpose, that restricts the use enough to make the musicians happy.

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:02 pm

not sayin' you will... but if you like anything you hear on my soundclick page... you are more then welcome to use it... but i'd need you to send the form to me... no fax machine...

and if you don't... all is cool \m/...
don't really mind

the_rev · Post by **the_rev** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:14 am

Hey Pretty babies, I came here from the land 'o' filmfights to defend my semi-friend Mr. Miller! All I can say is that.. you guys are all taking this too professionally. I mean, I know you gotta' have pride in your music and all that jazz.. But, do ya' really need to get this hostile over it? More than likely Mr. Miller wasn't going to put fart noises in it.. or turn it into a hardcore gangsta' rap. He was just going to put it in his movie. (His well made movie, i'm guessing. CPP are gods) So, your song would've gotten heard at a film festival! Thats pretty spectacular! If I were you, I wouldn't be so serious about your art. The majority of us aren't making money with it yet. (or at least not big money) .. and we're all just friends here. Film makers and Song makers should live in a world of PEACE AND JOY AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER GOODNESS! not bickering over contracts and such. I'm sure Brad didn't mean anything by calling you "AN EMPLOYEE" (like thats insanely offensive or something) He didn't write out the thing. So, therefor those aren't his words. Chill! Life isn't meant to be taken this seriously.. and at this point in your career, neither should your art. Well, I've said my piece. I'll probably be in here soon begging ya'll for your beautiful, beautiful music.

Oh, and visit http://www.slowmotionsickness.com.

j$ · Post by j$ » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:20 am

Just be glad that 'Attitude Adjuster' hasn't seen this thread yet ... that's all I have to say on the matter ...

Oh, and actually I think it's great that people are passionately proud of thier music, and take offence at a contract that says 'hey we want to use your music, but only if we can have the option to make it not your music any more'. What if we decided your film would be much better written and directed by someone else?

j$

the_rev · Post by **the_rev** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:34 am

I would probably agree. But, all joking aside.

The thing is. Thats just the contract. 99.9 percent of the time, we're not smart enough to mess with your music. Nor, are we mean enough. We're just poor simple film makers.. in need of music. Free music. Most of the time, we're extremely grateful, and definitly willing to pay you back by making a music video for you. A lot of times.. for filmfestivals and such.. we need to have a legal document saying that we had permission to use the music. There-in, the contract. Also, I take that "Editing of music" thing more as.. we can trim the end.. or the begining. or take parts out. Most of us are still making short 4 minute or so videos. We can't likely use the whole thing.

bz£ · Post by **bz£** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:13 am

Hey, we know you're all reasonable folks with no malicious intentions. So are we, except for that "J$" character: you can't trust a word he says. But anyways, the point remains that nobody with half an ounce of sense would have signed that contract as written.

I've no idea how the movie business works, but in the music industry you have to be very careful before you sign anything- you'd be surprised how badly an artist can get screwed by signing the most innocent looking contract.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:15 am

You make good points, but put the shoe on the other foot! It's pretty silly to tell people not to take there art seriously!!!

Could I take one of your films and cut and paste it to suit my music? Maybe I want to use some images from it, but some of them don't suit my needs?

Anyway, people here aren't mean to be mean , or morons, it's not editing the song to fit the siginificant part of the film that's the issue really, it's not awknowledging the source of inspiration that seems to be the actual issue. Contracts are not jokes, they are serious things. Telling people, "oh, go ahead, sign this contract, we won't really use it " is either very naive, or very manipulative. How would you react to a contract that you were asked to sign?

In fact. I think you dudes are being kinda serious about it! Obviously you guys are upset, or you wouldn't feel the need to pipe up and defend your "contract".

That being said, contract issues aside, if anything I have done suits your fancy, I would be very happy to allow you to use it, snip it, whatever. My earlier stuff that is terribly mixed, I'll remix it if you are interested.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:49 am

Feel free to check out HInc music for films, I think it would fit well.
Also, we should collaboratively make a new boilerplate contract that protects the rights of both filmmaker and songmaker

-bill

the_rev · Post by **the_rev** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:28 am

Alrighty, you guys win. Brad's kind of mean to me anyway. I'm still going to use uncopywrited music in my movies. (None of your stuff, don't worry.. unless I ask.. no contract) But, you HAVE TO put the shoe on our foots. Our media NEEDS music. Your media doesn't NEED video. So, we have to have ways to use music.

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:28 am

Bill's idea is great. How difficult could it be to create a contract template that everyone is comortable using?

ummm (cough cough), btw redcar would be open to underpinning the sonic side of any video/film project that you catz from filmfight might have... (ahem...)

Mostess · Post by **Mostess** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:52 am

the_rev wrote:Film makers and Song makers should live in a world of PEACE AND JOY AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER GOODNESS! not bickering over contracts and such.

The film festival requires legal contracts. They are the source of the conflict. "Bickering" is a horrible description of what is going on; songwriters refused to sign a contract giving filmmakers creative control over their work. Sounds like a smart move to me. This community is not "hostile," we're protective of our creative control.

You won't win friends with an emotional appeal that this community is party-pooping your filmmaking utopia; you need to mediate with your film festivals and your songwriters about what written permission is necessary. If you can't do that, there are well-documented methods for obtaining permissions for use of a huge number of songs through ASCAP and BMI. If you can't afford that, nothing is stopping you from making your own music.

Your contract may be standard, but that doesn't make it fair. Your intentions may be benign but that doesn't make you trustworthy. Your "come play with us" attitude may be genuine, but that doesn't make it constructive.

I'm all for a great collaboration between filmmakers and songwriters, but you need to understand a community before you take offense at it. We're under no one's legalistic thumb. You are. It's not our job to concede to pressures you voluntarily accept for your own work.

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