Your guitar tone sucks! (guitar tone/gear talk)

[Lunkhead]

A thread for guitar wankers to wank about guitar tone, picking up from where BLT and Paco and I left off in the "Stupid Deal" thread.

BLT, maybe you need one of these Marshal Class 5 5-watt tube combo amps?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Class5

Sounds pretty rocking in the first video on that page. The lower power mode seemed to sound just as good as the normal "full" power mode. I just tried one of these out (was trying out a really sweet used Gibson ES-125) and liked how it sounded.

[Lunkhead]

I would love to once and for all find a good cab simulator that sounds real. I play around with the Voxengo Boogex plug-in and like how many mic and cab choices it has. The only prob is that when I have a double tracked guitar panned hard right and left, the more I mix the cab FX in, the more it moves the effect towards the center. Not sure why. Maybe because I use it on the aux fx (the one that allows all the tracks to use) instead of the main fx for the track. But it's not like me not to have experimented using it every possible way. I'll have to try it again to remind myself.

BLT are you saying you route all your direct recorded guitar tracks to one amp/cab simulator? If so that seems a little weird. Normally I use the amp simulator as a channel/insert effect, so one amp simulator per direct recorded guitar track.

[Billy's Little Trip]

That Marshal class 5 looks sweet. Looks and sounds like a great recording/studio combo, which is what I really need.

As far as the fx inserts. I'm using an older version of Cubase LE. I have 2 main inserts that are proprietary for that track only, and 4 aux inserts that can be used by all tracks if wanted. I may be calling them the wrong things without turning on Cubase and calling them the right name.

I'm kind of asking myself why I don't use the boogex on the main fx inserts on my guitar tracks. There must be a reason, because it seems like the obvious thing to do. It may have started because of CPU juice. I'll experiment tomorrow morning.

[Paco Del Stinko]

Ha! A little clubhouse! I've had my eye on the Marshall for some time, but can not do it. I have two small amps although I say to myself "yeah, but you don't have an amp with el-84s". But really, ya know? Anyway, I love recording through the little guys. The leads on my entry for "Has Been For Years" are through my TopHat Portly Cadet, recenty re-tubed. The little guys are good for clean tones, sound nuts when pushed and remain at tolerable db levels, and take pedals well. Definite way to go. I've used the Cadet, a late 70's Champ, and one of those portable Pignose jobs for years.

[Lunkhead]

In Cubase I think you really want to use the amp simulator plugin as an "Insert" on each guitar track. Each guitar track would then have its own amp simulator plugin. So you wind up with as many amp simulator plugins as guitar tracks. This could definitely eat up some CPU. There are workarounds for that but they can be kind of annoying. You could dial in the settings you know you'll like for the plugin on just one track, then only apply the plugin to all the other tracks right before you do an export, for example. But then you're mixing not hearing the full sound, so that's a bit risky.

[Billy's Little Trip]

It's not hard, nor "too" time consuming, to mix a mono track down with cab sims in tow. Then bring it back in the mix.
But like you said earlier, when we are trying to meet the SF deadline, we tend to work out our guitar parts the easy quiet way and not have time for the best way. Sad but true.
....yet Paco still manages it! So I have no excuse.

[roymond]

In Cubase I think you really want to use the amp simulator plugin as an "Insert" on each guitar track. Each guitar track would then have its own amp simulator plugin. So you wind up with as many amp simulator plugins as guitar tracks. This could definitely eat up some CPU. There are workarounds for that but they can be kind of annoying. You could dial in the settings you know you'll like for the plugin on just one track, then only apply the plugin to all the other tracks right before you do an export, for example. But then you're mixing not hearing the full sound, so that's a bit risky.

In Logic when you "freeze" tracks it creates an audio temp track with all your effects in force, instead of using the CPU. You then proceed to record more tracks and mix as desired. If you need to adjust a frozen track (edit audio or change the effects used) it makes it live again, then you refreeze it when done. It's pretty seamless except for the time it takes to render the frozen track audio file. I thought Cubase had a similar feature.

As for having a room of real cabs, I've been reading a lot of modern physics (quantum/string theory) lately and am preparing a large room in another dimension for just this purpose! It'll be my Calabi-Yau studio. It's a pretty cool approach, but still working out those pesky details since there are 7 extra spacial dimensions and no apparent hallway to just walk down and choose a door. Yet I'm hopeful.

[Paco Del Stinko]

No need for excuses, Chris. We all do what we can do. I've always been pretty good at determining what guitar sound I'd like to have in a song and try to obtain it. Like piecing a puzzle together, or something. I'm sure I could re-amp if needed, although this is where I get especially dumb, as I don't quite understand send/return/aux functions on mixers. But then again, I've never felt the need to do so. The POD lets you re-amp too, right? That's the luxury of the emulator/simulator route.

Mostly unrelated, but Roymond: I didn't see your post until this morning, but last night I dreamt that you were giving a performance. I was afraid to meet you because you're so smart. And had a very thin neck. Anyway, it was at a very small amphitheatre, and you began to play a tall, obelisk shaped stringed instrument. Two hands, and even playing the pointier top end. Amazing. Maybe you are from another dimension!

[Lunkhead]

There is an equivalent to track "freezing" feature in Cubase, Roy. I haven't really used it much. (I went out and got a nice quad 2.8GHz MacPro a couple years ago so I haven't had any CPU usage related issues in Cubase since then.)

[Billy's Little Trip]

No need for excuses, Chris. We all do what we can do. I've always been pretty good at determining what guitar sound I'd like to have in a song and try to obtain it. Like piecing a puzzle together, or something. I'm sure I could re-amp if needed, although this is where I get especially dumb, as I don't quite understand send/return/aux functions on mixers. But then again, I've never felt the need to do so. The POD lets you re-amp too, right? That's the luxury of the emulator/simulator route.

Oh, believe me, I know the sound I want before I even start recording and can find/create it, even if the full tone isn't quite right on the finish. But it sounds right in my headphones and lets me continue developing the song. I don't like to stop the flow when I'm in the zone and always tell myself I can come back and perfect parts later, even though I rarely do, lol.

And yes, with my POD I do set my amp/cab/fx when I'm plugged direct in for recording. And obviously, fx only when I'm running through my stack. I love the FX and adjust-ability to create my own custom sounds when running through my rig, but the POD sims for direct recording are very sterile to me. I didn't start using the direct recording fx until shortly after I joined SF, so it is possible I'm not using them to their full potential. That's why I like the Boogex VST.

[Lunkhead]

So after all this chatter I wound up having to redo my guitar tracks for BSS's next song in very short order, so I recorded direct. I don't actually have any of my amps at home except for a 10" practice amp that sounds terrible. I played my old Strat (my first guitar!) with a DiMarzio humbucker in the bridge through my Bad Monkey overdrive pedal, direct in, then with Cubase 6's Amp Rack amp simulator applied. There's just something about the way the simulators sound that I feel like gives them away to my ear, but maybe I'm imagining it. Anyway, I'd be curious to hear what you guys think of the tone when the songs go up. I tried to tweak things for a while to get it sounding OK but I'm not sure how I did.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Now I'm curious, Lunk. I'll give you feed back.

[Paco Del Stinko]

Hmm. Interesting route. I bet you did fine, you know what you're doing. Ha! I'm all self-conscious this week. Thanks!

[Billy's Little Trip]

I'm all self-conscious this week

TMI. What you do with your conscious in your free time is your business.

[Paco Del Stinko]

Ha! Well, I like to share.

[hillbilly]

Hey guys sold my Pod, sounded good thru a amp, but plugged to laptop, had a hum. I'm a Electrican, ran seperate ground wires and such, waste of time. may just be my cheap azz laptop. I had that model that clamps on to your mike stand.

[hillbilly]

Hey bill, stink, i have kick azz head phones, use them all the time, a lil thin on speakers. do yall do the head phone thing, i love it

[Billy's Little Trip]

Hey bill, stink, i have kick azz head phones, use them all the time, a lil thin on speakers. do yall do the head phone thing, i love it

I mix on phones. I have good quality studio phones, but I don't think they will get me to where I want to be. I always check my mix on my other systems. So I've gotten used to where my levels should be, but not perfect. I do the mass of my mixing on phones to not annoy the fam. But the fine tuning is done in my truck, lol.

[Lunkhead]

I try to check the mix on both headphones and speakers. Usually if I only mix on headphones then the bass doesn't sound loud enough on the speakers. Also if I only use speakers I might go a little overboard with the panning which can be a little tough on the ears in headphones.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I try to check the mix on both headphones and speakers. Usually if I only mix on headphones then the bass doesn't sound loud enough on the speakers. Also if I only use speakers I might go a little overboard with the panning which can be a little tough on the ears in headphones.

Both of those issues are the plight of the everyday mixologists. Because headphone boost the lows in the 40-500Hz to compensate for the lack of body feel. So we "hear" the lows great on phones, but then our mix is lacking the body feel of the lows through speakers. So the obvious answer is to get your phone mix a tad bassy. As far as how much, that's up to us knowing our gear.

As far as mixing on speakers and over doing the panning is another issue we are faced with. I have a bad habit of mixing on speakers the way I want the music to sound on phones. But it ends up with right ear music and left ear music and is very distracting. Because speakers are crossing the right and left before they get to your ears to give you center. I personally think that all panning should be done on phones even if one uses speakers for most of the mix, just for that one reason.

My other issue with mixing on phone that you didn't mention are the highs. I always have to mix my highs down a bit on phones, or they are grating on speakers. Phones compensate by rolling off the highs because the speaker driver is right on your ear. So I tend to want to creep up the highs for crispness, but end up with too much when I listen on my house or car system. So again, knowing your own gear is important when headphone mixing.

I've asked a lot of people one question in conversation about how they listen to music. "Do you listen to music on headphones or a speaker system". The majority listen to music on little ear buds most of the time, even in their cars. So there is a lot to be said for mixing with that in mind.
1. Make sure the bass and kick are heard even if they can't be felt.
2. Don't slice people's brains into shreds with the highs.
3. Don't over pan, and try to cross reverb a bit to bring panned parts towards the center and bring joy to both ears for that out of head experience.
4. ?????
5. Profit!?

[Billy's Little Trip]

By the way. Has anyone used a monitor simulator for phones? Something like this. >>> http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php?mode=re ... t=f&q=HC38

I'd be curious if it helps or not.

[Lunkhead]

Ken has one of these, but I don't know if he's used it much. It gives you some different settings for checking your mix on your headphones, and they're supposed to simulate different listening environments.

http://www.focusrite.com/products/audio ... s/vrm_box/