Computer drums

Koushirou · Post by **Koushirou** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:29 pm

i have a pirated version of fruityloops3 that i've been using for a while to make drum tracks. but i've been having a hard time getting things to sound really good. i listen to some of your stuff and your drums sound... really good. could anyone direct me to either sites with good samples or advice on how to be a better drum sequencer in general? (how you usually do it, etc.) aite koo thx payce

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john m · Post by **john m** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:05 pm

Find a drummer. Preferably a good one. Record.

(I keep having to tell you guys this, what gives?)

Also I toy occasionally with FL6 (Producer Edition or some shit, I don't remember), that's decent. I'd ask Puce what he used for Start Over, that was some neat stuff.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:49 am

For those of us without access to drummers, Starfinger recommends a program called Battery. His computer drums are great.
-bill

Kapitano · Post by **Kapitano** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:52 am

Koushirou wrote:i have a pirated version of fruityloops3 that i've been using for a while to make drum tracks. but i've been having a hard time getting things to sound really good.

Two words really: Reverb and Compression.

I use a lot of electronic drum samples from http://www.hollowsun.com/. If you want real drums, try http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/. I use http://www.dooleydrums.com/, but they're not free.

Either way, getting drums to sound good is more a matter of applying effects than starting out with great samples. I'm sorry I don't know much about FruityLoops so I can't advise in details, but it can use VST plugins. There's a thread around here somewhere about good VSTs.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:52 am

<a href="http://www.leafdigital.com/software/lea ... nload.html" target="resource window">Leaf Drums</a> is a good free drum sequencer. You can stage any drumset simply by adding folders to the Leaf Drums directory. I like it's 16th note abilities..it's good for adding a 'two handed skin hit' if you put in an additional snare track in with a weaker sounding hit and put it's touch on the 16th note behind the main hit. It also has left and right balance as well as volume control and a few effects that can be added. Two effects per drum even. It's always good to have at least two snares and two of each type of high hat so that you can have some type of dynamics in your drums. Not too many drummers hit the skins with the exact same force every time

combine that with the <a href="http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/ns_kit.html" target="resource window">NSKIT</a>, which is an analouge kit sampled for sequencer use. There are different strokes for left and right hand as well as dynamic touches from strong to light hits on the skins. Please read his copyrights. He encourages the use of his drums but requires permission if you plan on using them for profitable use. Please respect that. I have asked him for permission a couple of times and he has been extremely pleasent about it and only required a copy of the commercial material for keepsake.

AS MENTIONED BEFORE, once you have a drum track for a whole song exported. Add compression..not too much, just enough to get a stronger sound. You don't want to clip and you also want to leave room for the other instruments. Then put the drumset in a room by adding some reverb. Depending on the type of song or sound you are going for, add reverb accordingly. Most of the time you just wanna put your drummer in a room to make it sound a bit more realistic. That usually just requires a minimal amount of decay.

I'm no expert. However, fake drums sounding as real as they can is an ongoing effort with me. I'll never be able to actually play the drums so I do the best I can with the tools I have. I'm always learning so if YOU learn a trick...lemme know. Some folk compliment my drum programming while others spit on it...so be ready for critisism from the elite drummests of songfight! I'm looking at you Dr. Worm.

*SMILEY*

somebody bookmark this post and be ready to post it in six months when this question is asked again *WINKY*

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:01 pm

Yeah, Leaf Drums ARE good... didn't you use those on your Block City track?

LockSmithDon · Post by **LockSmithDon** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:34 pm

This is cool. I came to the forums tonight with just one goal: to make sure you guys knew about Natural Studio (NS_Kit). Heck, I didn't even know this thread would be here. I was planning on replying to this thread. It's nice to see a couple of you have already mentioned it. I definitely think it's going to serve me well until I have the $$$$ to buy BFD.

Appreciate the tips on getting them to sound better.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:25 pm

Leaf wrote:Yeah, Leaf Drums ARE good... didn't you use those on your Block City track?

naw, for that track I got some lousy drummer do0d.

jack · Post by **jack** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:20 am

Leaf knows real drums real well.
Hoblit knows fake drums real well.

toddlans · Post by **toddlans** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:15 am

The main two things you need to do when using samples for drums are

1. Make them sound human! The best way i think to do this is using multi-layered samples and make the beat using a velocity sensitive midi controller. This means that for each drum hit, there are different volume levels, then the harder you hit the key (the velo. sensitive part) the louder the notes get. This basically amounts to adding small "human" mistakes in the volume and tempo of the hits. Some drum sequencers have a "humanize" function that basically does this same thing. It just randomly varies the dynamics of your hits and shifts them slightly forward or back. Its better to do it yourself though so you can get the feel right (i.e. harder hits where you want the accents). This is the main reason fake drum tracks sound "fake"

2. Get good samples. The NS kit as somebody mentioned are about the best free ones i've seen, but I usually have to process them quite a bit because they sound too dry and dull to me. if you have a decent enough recording set-up and decent set of drums but don't have the ability to record a whole kit at once for whatever reason, then don't hesitate to make your own samples of real drums.

Adding compression is not really needed per se because the point of compression is usually to make sure you don't clip from the transient peaks when the sound is first going into your system. Most samples already have compression on them. However, if done right with a good compression plug-in you can get different colors and also add a bit pressure to the beat (but you have to get the attack and release times right or it'll usually kill your dynamics and hurt more than help). I'll use extra compression sometimes to get sound of the natural compression of drums being slammed onto analogue tape. Adding reverb really depends on what the samples sounded like to start with and what sound you want to achieve as well as the context of the mix. I'll often add a very slight bit of room verb with emphasis on the pre-delay.

One more thing, If you have the ability to record real cymbals/ride/hats then you'd be better off. I'll often do the kick and snare with samples and then record all the cymbals live. Samples of cymbals tend to sound really fake no matter what. Its usually because its really hard to get the decay of cymbals to sound right with samples (ie they ring out too long or too short for the tempo your at or they cut off awkwardly when the next cymbal hit is triggered). hope this helps.

c hack · Post by **c hack** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:35 am

I only use fake drums if I have a reason to, otherwise I don't use them at all. I mean, there's no reason to use midi drums and try to fool the listener into thinking they were real, but it's perfectly reasonable to use electronic drum sounds -- that way you're not frontin'. There's a program I really like that I use for drums and much more, but I can't remember the name. There must be some reason why I can't remember it, but I can't think of any reason.

king_arthur · Post by **king_arthur** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:56 am

While many would probably tell you not to listen to ANYTHING I have to say about drumming...

In terms of drum _programming_, I use Band In A Box... you still have to pick a _style_ that works for the song you're doing, but in terms of programming fills and minor variations of the basic beat, I like it. One thing I've been doing lately is to cut back on the number of "fills" I have it put in for me... i.e., rather than playing a fill every four bars or something, just a fill at the start of the verse, one at the start of the chorus, etc.

In terms of drum _sound_, (again, many would not consider me the person to listen to on this topic), I've found it helps to record the drum machine _dry_ - make sure the reverb level on whatever drum program you're using is down to zero. Then add reverb to the drums during the mixdown process, using whatever you're using for your other reverb. This keeps the drum track crisper and makes it sound more like it's part of the whole recording.

Charles (Art is my middle name!)

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:01 am

c hack wrote:I only use fake drums if I have a reason to, otherwise I don't use them at all. I mean, there's no reason to use midi drums and try to fool the listener into thinking they were real, but it's perfectly reasonable to use electronic drum sounds -- that way you're not frontin'.

So you don't have a drummer around, nor technology to record one with, and this decides for you that the song shall not have real-sounding drums? Wow. That seems a huge sacrifice to make to avoid programming drum parts to sound as real as possible.

Program people, program! Programming drums to sound realistic gives non-drummers a unique insight into how complex good drumming really is. It let's you deconstruct drumming you hear in a different way. Yes, it's incredibly challenging, but when you hit it, it's very rewarding. (Then you work on the next bar...)

It will be rare that you are able to pass your programming off as live drumming to the accomplished listener (or drummer), but when you get good at it (by "it", I mean setting up your samples and velocity maps well, processing your samples, and of course playing them), most people will not be able to tell. And I'd be willing to be it's only other musicians who would ever ask you if you programmed them, as they wonder how the hell you did it... Yep, it's hard, but don't not do it for fear of frontin'. Do it lots, do it often. It's the only way you'll get better at it. I've seen guys play drums on a keyboard that blew my mind.

(while you are practicing tho, save your money for an M-Audio 1010, half a dozen nice microphones, mixer and befriend a drummer who can leave his kit at your house.... because NOTHING beats live drumming.)

c hack · Post by **c hack** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:05 am

TheHipCola wrote:
c hack wrote:I only use fake drums if I have a reason to, otherwise I don't use them at all. I mean, there's no reason to use midi drums and try to fool the listener into thinking they were real, but it's perfectly reasonable to use electronic drum sounds -- that way you're not frontin'.
So you don't have a drummer around, nor technology to record one with, and this decides for you that the song shall not have real-sounding drums? Wow. That seems a huge sacrifice to make to avoid programming drum parts to sound as real as possible.

[...]

...because NOTHING beats live drumming.)

You said it yourself. Nothing beats live drumming. That is, if you're going for the live drum sound. So I bypass the whole thing altogether by using electronic-sounding drums. I do have the technology for it. It's in the above post, in code.

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:07 am

Now I get you, that seems reasonable.

jack · Post by **jack** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:34 am

c hack seems to be the voice of Reason here.

capitalizing it helps.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:35 am

I've heard some super stellar drum programming around here. Phil always kicks ass at it, and Hip Cola, your parts always seem to fit the tune tonally...

Just as a selfish bastard, I can't stand it when drum programming is obvious. I'm not talking about techno grooves over dance tracks, that's the full meal deal for those styles. I'm talking crappy casio sounding beats over rock songs. Listen to Abominominous... did I spell that right? and revel. I'm sure there are quite a few good programmers... but he's the one that comes to mind. It always sounds like a kit being played. I like that.

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:52 am

A-bomb is the shit when it comes to programming... I often find myself shaking my head in wonderment at it. I actually had to PM him the first time I heard his stuff last year to confirm it was programming, it's that good.

Nothing replaces the real kit, for sure. But if you can't record one 'cuz you don't have access, try programming. That's my deal...it can be done well. But never, NEVER choose programming over live drumming if you have the choice. THAT is frontin'.

Kapitano · Post by **Kapitano** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:19 am

TheHipCola wrote:NOTHING beats live drumming

If it's well recorded, and if it fits with the genre.

It's an absolute nightmare to record real drums properly. The snare and hat tend to clip and hiss, the kick either reduces to a click or else it booms, and it'll take all the microphones you've got.

IMO, badly recorded real drums will kill a song much quicker than fake sounding samples.

If you want the track to sound like a live concert recording, or the song is something jazzy and syncopated, or an old fashioned rock out, then obviously real drums are much better.

But rapping to real drums is surprisingly hard. And I remember some early Chicago house tracks that used a real drummer - it sounds just awkward.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:45 am

yeah..sometimes a programmed beat is just what the doctor ordered... get it? Doctor? Doctor rhythm? Drum doctor? .... ugh. I'm too punny in an obtuse manner.

I've heard some KICK ass rapping to live drums... just recently saw Black Eyed Peas, mind you on tv, but live, with a drummer... deadly.

And ...uh... how about "check your head"... lot's of live drumming, or live drum loops on that baby.

But still, the real point is not live versus programmed, like it's some kind of competitive debate. It boils down either to artistic choice, or what to do when you have no choice.
Kaptiano's whole "drums tend to sound like this when recorded" should be prefaced by "when I " ...cause I don't seem to have the problems he speaks of, and tons or recordings, professionally done, have DEADLY DRUM sounds...

But for the dude who originally asked, who has the limitation of no drummer, or access, or the gear or know-how... uh... can't help you. I don't program drums. I am, however, always interested in random requests to drum on people's tracks!! And, that Leaf Drums (ah, real-life irony) probably is deadly, if all these folks say so..

Leaf Drums... deadly sequencer.... [/woo woo go Spartans]

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:42 pm

HeuristicsInc wrote:For those of us without access to drummers, Starfinger recommends a program called Battery. His computer drums are great.
-bill

I can second the Battery recommendation. I

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:47 pm

I'll third it. It's retardedly easy to setup your own kits or use one from NI...easy interface and great features.

Stay away from Linplugs RM-IV...looks really sexy, but it's fiddly as shit and I didn't have much luck with it.

But I'll totally suggest that for electronic sounding rythmns and pulses...buy yourself a copy of Sonic Charge's Utonic. It's like $69, and it's AWESOME. It's a huge tool that I employ almost all the time...super easy to program. Like, REAL easy. Great sounds.

Computer drums

Computer drums

Re: Computa drums