Another thread about vocals

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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Reist »

Adam! wrote:So much about the song dictates the appropriate vocal processing, so I don't know what I'd do with just the solo'd vocal. If you do upload dry source tracks, I hope you upload Kick Start: I love that song, and I'll happily mix the fuck out of it (and post what I did).

Full Disclosure: I was going to ask you if I could mix this song, anyway. I have some multi-track drum tricks I want to try out, but no appropriate drum tracks of my own. I didn't ask earlier because you were still in Nur Ein.
Cool. I could upload both then. They're very different songs, but I like them both - and if you guys have tips to make either of them better, that's great. Maybe I'll learn something about bass processing too (since both have keyboard bass tracks - I just don't know how high to mix them).

If I have tomorrow off (which I assume I will - it was raining the whole day), I'll get this stuff uploaded.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Rabid Garfunkel »

jb wrote:
Rabid Garfunkel wrote:[offtopic] JB's urban Clayton Moore avatar freaks me out. [/offtopic]
Ha! Bingo! It was for Halloween last year. I went around all night shouting "Tau Lambda Rho!" I had a holster with two cans of Coors Light.

I'M NEVER TAKING THE MASK OFF IN PUBLIC.
Heh, though that sounds more like my other option, the Dread Pirate Biff.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by jb »

Adam! wrote:So much about the song dictates the appropriate vocal processing, so I don't know what I'd do with just the solo'd vocal. If you do upload dry source tracks, I hope you upload Kick Start: I love that song, and I'll happily mix the fuck out of it (and post what I did).
Well, keep in mind that the goal here isn't necessarily to make the vocal fit with the song... it's to determine whether what's on the rust can be improved using somebody else's equipment. So if I take a look at that vocal track, I'm just going to EQ and compress and whatnot until it sounds pretty good to me on my equipment-- if possible. If I can, I'll advise Reist to steal Ross's headphones. If I can't, we're back to improving the signal chain through a new microphone or preamp... or something.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Adam! »

jb wrote:the goal here isn't necessarily to make the vocal fit with the song
Oh. That's my goal. I don't hear too much wrong with Andrew's track, I just think it isn't processed appropriately for the kind of music he is making (rock, basically).
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

Adam! wrote:
jb wrote:the goal here isn't necessarily to make the vocal fit with the song
Oh. That's my goal. I don't hear too much wrong with Andrew's track, I just think it isn't processed appropriately for the kind of music he is making (rock, basically).
This is my feeling too. There's nothing wrong with his vocals, it's just that his processed vocals don't sound like they are on the same stage. Without going back for a listen, the first thing that comes to mind is that he has very wet guitars, roomy drums and dry vox. The three don't work well together as a whole.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Reist »

The tracks are on my computer, which is moving at a crawl. I'm trying to upload the tracks to personalgrid.com (mentioned in another post in the Help/How To section), and we can try to go from there.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Reist »

Here we are!!!!

Kick Start Tracks
Tracks 1 to 3
Tracks 4 to 6
Tracks 7 to 9
Tracks 10 to 12
Tracks 13 to 15
Track 16

Sleepwalking Tracks
Tracks 1 to 3
Tracks 4 to 5
Tracks 6 to 7
Tracks 8 to 9
Tracks 10 to 11
Track 12
Tracks 13 to 16

Have at it guys, and thanks again for doing this. I hope that PersonalGrid works for you all.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Adam! »

Awesome, downloading now.

For the people who just wanted the vocal track, it might be handy to point out which pack contains the vocals.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Lunkhead »

I threw together a quick mix of "Kick Start" last night. I guess it doesn't really sound that much different from the mix you entered into Nur Ein, but I do think the vocals sound marginally more to my liking. The vocal tracks sounded odd to me for some reason. Adam figured out that there isn't really any bass in them. I'm not sure if it's your mic, or what. You've also got a fair amount of room ambience, though nothing too troubling. Still, Ken's advice may be really good for you. If you get closer up to the mic you'll get more bass frequencies and less room ambience. Of course, if the bass were there, I'd have cut it anyway, but it's nice to have a full range recording to start with, so you can choose to cut the bass or not. If you're up on the mic more, you might want to watch out about all the loud breathing stuff you're doing, and watch your plosives. You'll definitely want a wind/pop screen. Anyway, I'm not sure, but it kind of sounded like you panned one or both of your vocal tracks away from the center a bit. I tried keeping them both in the center. A lot of the time your second track is doubling and not harmonizing, and I'm just more used to having doubled primary vocal tracks be centered together. I also turned down the second vocal track a bit. Adam said the vocals could use a boost around 5k, so I tried that and it of course did make them sound better. I also cut some mids from the guitars, in a completely novice and unscientific way, which to my untrained ears seemed to help give the vocals a little more room. I ran the two vox tracks into a group track, so other than cutting the second track, they were processed together wth the same EQ and compression and reverb. I used a smaller reverb and less of it than I think I heard in your mix. For compression I used a "Rock Lead Vocals" preset, and didn't futz with it much. I'm not that great with a compressor yet, so I can provide the settings if you want, but I don't know how useful they'll really be. Anyway, this isn't a great mix or anything, but I think the vocals sound a little better to me personally. I don't think they're so radically different though that everyone will necessarily agree about that.

http://personalgrid.com/12998-reist_kickstart?download

On a side note, I also wound up not using your two tom tracks or the room ambience drum track. I thought your two overhead tracks sounded better raw than a lot of SF! drums do mixed, so I used those and the kick and snare tracks. You could possibly save yourself some time mixing your drums by just going with those four tracks (rather than all seven) and use the time you save to work on mixing your vocals, if you're in a hurry. Of course, I'm not a drummer, and I have little to no experience mixing drums, so this is not expert advice or anything close to it.

Anyway, thanks for uploading the tracks. It's very fun to have them to play around with, particularly the drum tracks for me since I rarely have real drum tracks to try to mix. Hopefully Adam will get a chance to make mix, as I'm eager to hear what he can do with these tracks.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

That sounds good Lunk. I like how you brought everything under the same roof. I'd like to hear the drums a bit more and a snappier snare mix, but the overall sound is nice.

I'll see if I can give these tracks a mix later today. The first thing I'm going to do is color everything with some warm tubes and noise. Everything is right there, but it needs some liveliness.
I also desperately want to add some back up vocals in the chorus and a sweet driving bass line to make this song move, but that might take us away from the original goal here, which is working with what he has recorded.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Paco Del Stinko »

Well, Lunkhead beat me to it, but I also did a mix of Kick Start. I was tempted to record a bass line, but thought it better to leave as is. I used all the drum tracks though, and kept it as a conventional mix. At least you can get some chuckles out of the mixes until the pros show up!. (Pssst...hey kid, over here...get a bass before a new microphone).

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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

Holy crap Charlie, you nailed the vocal treatment! That's how they always should be, in my opinion. But the guitar lost it's edge from the ambiance that you added to them, a little bit.
....I like the slowed down breath at the start, lol. I peed myself. :lol: It sounds like his dinosaur he used once.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Paco Del Stinko »

Well, I thought Lunk's guitars were nice and articulate, with good separation and crunch, and his entire mix less muddy. That breathing sound is whatever he did on a couple of drum tracks, I just left it in. Adam!'ll get it all right, I'm sure.

OK, back on topic, I added a touch of EQ on the vocal at 5 and 7 something, dropped a pube from 200 and 400. I did the same to both tracks and left them at the same volume level, panned about 10 left and 10 right. A bit of compression and 3ms delay with a vocal plate. With delay and reverb, I typically add it until I hear it pretty good, then roll it back a bit. Sounds like a lot, but it's my usual recipe. I say keep the mic for now, practice better technique, pick up a bass, get a better mic later. So there.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Reist »

Adam! wrote:For the people who just wanted the vocal track, it might be handy to point out which pack contains the vocals.
Oops. :)

Tracks 6 and 7 are always vocals for me. For these songs, I don't think I had more than 2 vocal tracks, so they should be in 6 and 7 for each song. After I eat, I look forward to hearing your mixes - thanks again for doing this guys.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Reist »

Wow, guys. I had a listen to both. You both made the vocals sound really bright, and I like it a lot. Lunk cleaned up the mix quite a bit, and Paco beefed it up. I'm really liking this - thanks a lot for doing this. :)
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Adam! »

I'm hoping to tackle this one within the week.
(Obscurity, please don't shriek at me for posting that.)

Cool mixes, Lunk an' Pac'. Once Nur Ein stops kicking my ass, and once I get a few recording obligations out of the way, I'll have time to give this song some love. Hey Andrew, can you think of any particular bands that have the "sound" you're going for? I'm mostly just looking for reference material. Something new-ish and well-produced, ideally.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

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Adam! wrote:Andrew, can you think of any particular bands that have the "sound" you're going for? I'm mostly just looking for reference material. Something new-ish and well-produced, ideally.
Man, that's a tough one. I've never tried to mix like a band I enjoy. I guess I've always wanted a drum sound like Dream Theater's 6 degrees of inner turbulence. Lately I've really been liking the Weezer guitar sound (at least on the Blue Album - I love pinkerton, but its production is pretty weak). Is that enough, or should I look deeply within myself for a better answer? I'm willing to work harder on my answer if it'll help you out more.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by obscurity »

(Obscurity, please don't shriek at me for posting that.)

Did you post that just to piss me off, or did you have another reason?

Actually, y'know what, forget it. I need a break from this shit. It's taking way more out of me than I'm getting out of it. I'm sure I'll be back at some point in the future.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Adam! »

Tonight I finally got a chance to sit down and knock out this mix. Listening now, it sounds like it's missing some meat around 250hz. Usually after I do a mix I A/B it against a couple similar songs and make any needed tone tweaks during mastering, but because this was a quickie I didn't master it at all, aside from a little GClip action to get the volume up. Oh well.

Tonally I used Dream Theater's About To Crash as a mixing reference, and I felt like I got pretty close to its drum sound. I especially like how the tom roll at 1:20 turned out. The most obvious change is that I added my own bass track: I wanted to show how one of your mixes could sound with a real instrument holding down the low end. The vocals proved tricky, as they almost felt like they had been put through a "telephone" bandpass filter, missing both highs and lows. In the end I used a subtle exciter (BBE Sonic Maximizer, which comes with Cubase these days. It boosts treble in a fairly intelligent way, adding presence. I had the treble boost set at 20%. A ~3db wide (q=1.4) EQ boost at 5khz will do basically the same thing) to re-invigorate the missing highs, a highshelf boost (+3db to everything above 13khz) to add some air, a lowshelf boost of +3db to everything below ~275hz to add in the missing fundamentals, and then a highpass @ 150hz to clean up any mud. I then nuked the vocal with a 4:1 fast-attack (1ms) / fast-release (100ms) compressor, setting the threshold such that I was pulling down between 3 and 6 db most of the time, except on the loud "whoa-ohs" where it was attenuating as much as 12-15 db. To beef up the vocals even more I added an almost imperceptible amount of 1/8th note delay, as well as a little short (0.5s decay) reverb. These same effects got added to the guitar solo. Anyway, I'm going to bed now, but I can post further details tomorrow.

I'd echo the advice of others and say get in closer to that mic when you record: you'll get less room sound and a fuller low-end. That said, the lack of treble makes me think this mic might not be the best for you.


PS: Woah obs, apparently Internet really is serious business.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Lunkhead »

Was the bass actually a keyboard? I completely missed that. I just thought it had too much chorus on it and didn't sound so great. Whoops. Anyway, that mix sounds rocking, Adam, particularly the drums. If you're bored some day with nothing better to do I'd love to read in another thread what you did to get the drums to sound like that.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Reist »

Adam! wrote:Tonight I finally got a chance to sit down and knock out this mix. Listening now, it sounds like it's missing some meat around 250hz. Usually after I do a mix I A/B it against a couple similar songs and make any needed tone tweaks during mastering, but because this was a quickie I didn't master it at all, aside from a little GClip action to get the volume up. Oh well.

Tonally I used Dream Theater's About To Crash as a mixing reference, and I felt like I got pretty close to its drum sound. I especially like how the tom roll at 1:20 turned out. The most obvious change is that I added my own bass track: I wanted to show how one of your mixes could sound with a real instrument holding down the low end. The vocals proved tricky, as they almost felt like they had been put through a "telephone" bandpass filter, missing both highs and lows. In the end I used a subtle exciter (BBE Sonic Maximizer, which comes with Cubase these days. It boosts treble in a fairly intelligent way, adding presence. I had the treble boost set at 20%. A ~3db wide (q=1.4) EQ boost at 5khz will do basically the same thing) to re-invigorate the missing highs, a highshelf boost (+3db to everything above 13khz) to add some air, a lowshelf boost of +3db to everything below ~275hz to add in the missing fundamentals, and then a highpass @ 150hz to clean up any mud. I then nuked the vocal with a 4:1 fast-attack (1ms) / fast-release (100ms) compressor, setting the threshold such that I was pulling down between 3 and 6 db most of the time, except on the loud "whoa-ohs" where it was attenuating as much as 12-15 db. To beef up the vocals even more I added an almost imperceptible amount of 1/8th note delay, as well as a little short (0.5s decay) reverb. These same effects got added to the guitar solo. Anyway, I'm going to bed now, but I can post further details tomorrow.

I'd echo the advice of others and say get in closer to that mic when you record: you'll get less room sound and a fuller low-end. That said, the lack of treble makes me think this mic might not be the best for you.
Man ... that is an incredible mix. Thank you very much Adam ... I'll give it a better listen and comment a bit more later tonight. Thank you so much though - it sounds really awesome.
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Re: Another thread about vocals

Post by Paco Del Stinko »

Yeah, that sounds fantastic. I played my mix back afterwards, and felt kind of embarrassed. Great work, Adam!, and what a lucky guy you are Mr. Reist!
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