Recording Acoustic Guitar

[thehipcola]

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Currently, I'd like to figure out how to get a good acoustic guitar sound. I've just never been able to get a good one. I got a new guitar today. Maybe that will help.

condensor mic, 12th-15th fret, about 1-2 inches from fretboard, pointed away from the soundhole, slightly downward angle. depending on the rest of your instrumentation, you'll want to roll off some bass and pull back some mids a wee bit. And change your strings.

[c hack]

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Currently, I'd like to figure out how to get a good acoustic guitar sound. I've just never been able to get a good one. I got a new guitar today. Maybe that will help.

condensor mic, 12th-15th fret, about 1-2 inches from fretboard, pointed away from the soundhole, slightly downward angle. depending on the rest of your instrumentation, you'll want to roll off some bass and pull back some mids a wee bit. And change your strings.

My method (YMMV) is to point my condenser at my torso and sit a couple feet away from it, with the guitar neck pointing a couple feet to the left of the mic. I never record with new strings -- don't like the sound. If I'm fingerpicking, it sounds better if I have solid calluses on my right hand. Don't forget, the acoustics of the room also make a big difference, especially if you're strumming loudly.

[deshead]

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Currently, I'd like to figure out how to get a good acoustic guitar sound.

condensor mic, 12th-15th fret, about 1-2 inches from fretboard, pointed away from the soundhole

My method (YMMV) is to point my condenser at my torso and sit a couple feet away from it, with the guitar neck pointing a couple feet to the left of the mic.

This could be a thread unto itself.

I use 2 SM58s, one pointed straight at the bridge, about 4 inches back, and one at the 15th fret, 2-3 inches off the fretboard, pointed 15 degrees towards the sound hole. I think the only constant with miking an acoustic is, like c hack said, YMMV. You have to get to know your own guitar.

A sign of a good producer (or songwriter, or lover): someone who's brutally honest about themselves, regardless of the outcome.

Which is why Songfight's so great. There're lots of folk here happy to be brutally honest with yourself. 8)

[thehipcola]

Does anyone have any experience recording with Elixirguitar strings? I've heard mixed things about them. They're fairly pricey though..so I thought I'd ask before shelling out.

Thanks!

[deshead]

Does anyone have any experience recording with Elixirguitar strings? I've heard mixed things about them. They're fairly pricey though..so I thought I'd ask before shelling out.

There's no question they hold their tone longer, but the tone lacks some of the high-end sparkle that you get from fresh regular strings. Also, I find they sound different on all guitars, moreso than normal strings. I can't use them on my APX because they sound so lifeless.

FWIW, my last 3 or 4 Songfight entries, at least Prep School, Failure..., and SUASD, I've used Martin's extended life string (SP+ or something like that) on the acoustic. I find them a good bit brighter than Elixirs (although just as pricey.)

[thehipcola]

Thanks Des.. glad I asked. I think I'll try those Martin strings.

[joshw]

The biggest thing you can do to improve the acoustic tone is to record it in stereo. They sound incredibly dull if you don't. Even if it's going to be deep in the mix, record in stereo anyway and don't pan it very wide. Always try flipping the phase on one of the tracks when you're done, and pick which sounds better.

It's hard to record acoustic without getting boominess. Obviously, don't aim toward the soundhole. I've been using an X/Y pair of mics directly in front of the soundhole, but pointed apart at 90-110 degree angles and back up until the mics "hit" the guitar at roughly an equalateral triangle. If it still sounds boomy, try pulling down the EQ around 200 hz. Condensor mics are definitely the weapon of choice for this - they give a more detailed sound. I've only got large diaphragms, but I've heard small diaphragms are very good for acoustic. Maybe someday I'll splurge.

You can also used spaced omnis for a different, more intimate and natural sound. You'll pick up more room noise, but since omnis don't have the proximity effect (gets boomier when you're near them), you can get them much closer.

I've got really crappy acoustics in my studio, so I got a giant piece of foam, maybe 7 foot by 4 foot and an inch thick. When I'm recording, I wrap it behind my chair to absorb some of the room ambience, which is usually not what I'm looking for. I hear a lot of acoustics here with too much ambience, and this might help.

If you're using a capo, especially high up on the fretboard, tie a sock around the other end of the fretboard to keep the resonance monsters from ruining your take. If you want to hear an all too good example of that, check out my SF version of "Can't Take Our Love Away". I re-recorded it for the album because the resonant buzz drove me nuts.

Also, acoustic guitar dynamics are a beast. Ideally, you'll almost need two ways of playing - normally, and in the studio. The goal is to need a minimal amount of compression. So pick a little lighter and more consistently. Banging away sounds great live, but it doesn't carry over into the studio very well.

Oh, and I swear by Elixirs. They're so good. And they have a studio benefit - the strings won't squeak when you slide across them. I usually have to compensate with adding a little brightness in the mix, but their overall natural tone is worth it.

Edit: And for gods sake, if you're going to use your guitar's pickup, keep it really low in the mix. I've only done this once, using a little bit of low-passed pickup to really beef up the bass, but it was an interesting effect.

[LMNOP]

I had an opportunity to record some acoustic guitar this weekend, trying to take advantage of some of the tips in this thread and elsewhere. Thought I'd share the experience FWIW.

#1 Lesson Learned: STEREO, STEREO, STEREO

I only have two halfway-decent mics: an SM57 (or is it 58? the pointy one, not the round one) and a relatively cheap condenser (AKG 2000-something). I put the Shure in the 12th-15th fret vicinity, maybe three inches off the fretboard, pointed sightly away from the soundhole. I put the condenser maybe 12-18 inches away, a little to the right of the soundhole.

First take. Condenser sounds really good. Shure sounds pretty bad. Remarkably (to me), the two together sound better than the condenser alone. Guitar playing is not so good. So...

Second take. Didn't change a thing in the setup, or so I thought. Condenser doesn't sound quite as good. Shure sounds quite a bit better. Again, the two together sound better than anything from my past. Guitar playing is about as good as it gets for me. Keeper.

I was surprised at the difference between the two takes. Obviously, a few inches and/or degrees can make a big difference.

I forgot about flipping the phase on one track and I can't do that "post". My one opportunity is on the condenser pre-amp. Something for next time, I guess.

So thanks, Josh and others, for all the good advice. I've been doing this a pretty long time so I seldom see any huge improvements from changes in technique. This is huge.

[joshw]

#1 Lesson Learned: STEREO, STEREO, STEREO

I only have two halfway-decent mics: an SM57 (or is it 58? the pointy one, not the round one) and a relatively cheap condenser (AKG 2000-something).

You might also try using something like Antares' Microphone Modeler when tracking stereo from two very different microphones. You tell it that a given track is an SM57 that's four inches away from the source, and you'd like to make it sound like an AKG-C2000B instead. It obviously can't turn a Radio Shack mic into a Neumann, but it does a good job of smoothing out the EQ curve differences between two different mics.

I had to do this when I recorded a friend's CD recently because he sings at the same time that he plays and I ran out of nice mics. It wasn't perfect, but it really helped.

[LMNOP]

Microphone Modeler

What will they think of next? I'm not PC-based so they'll have to come out with an electronic one if they want my money.

it does a good job of smoothing out the EQ curve differences between two different mics

Josh, do you think it's necessarily a bad thing to use two different mic's? I'm pretty happy with my recent experience and <pretending I know what I'm talking about> maybe the differences serve to minimize the phase cancellation? </pretending>

I recorded a friend's CD recently -- he sings at the same time that he plays

I'll be doing this exact same thing soon. Now that I'm sold on stereo, I'll have to borrow a third mic or make him scratch the vocal through a Radio Shack mic (yes, I really have one and, to be honest, some of the stuff I recorded with it 10-15 years ago doesn't sound half bad) and then re-record.

[Mostess]

I had to do this when I recorded a friend's CD recently because he sings at the same time that he plays and I ran out of nice mics. It wasn't perfect, but it really helped.

I'm sold on that CD. This track (Rust & Bones) is beautiful.

Josh, tell me you didn't spend $500 on software so you could use a $200 mic to sub for a $400 mic on a couple tracks! But I shouldn't snark---the songs sound lovely.

[Mostess]

Obviously, a few inches and/or degrees can make a big difference.

This is my trouble with mic-ing acoustic guitar. I do everything myself, so if I get a nice sound, I need to either memorize my body position to the centimeter or not move. Not moving the guitar while playing is crazy difficult for me. Not moving while starting and stopping the recorder is ridiculously difficult. I need to recruit help, I think.

I've wanted Josh to write these posts for about 6 months now. Acoustic guitar is a headache for me (recording and mixing our "I Wish I Was So Sure" was a nightmare, and it still sounds awful). Josh's guitar always sounds so crisp. Many thanks!

[joshw]

Microphone Modeler

Josh, do you think it's necessarily a bad thing to use two different mic's? I'm pretty happy with my recent experience and <pretending I know what I'm talking about> maybe the differences serve to minimize the phase cancellation? </pretending>

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but you'll probably have better results if you're going to pan them more than 5-10% apart if you use matched mics. If you're spacing the mics farther apart, I could see the value in using a dark mic by the fingerboard and a brigher, less boomy mic on the body. As with anything, your mileage may vary, and trying it out is the only way to know how it'll sound.

Phase cancellation most likely won't be an issue in this case - it doesn't matter what type of mics you use, it only matters where you put them. If they're stacked closely (XY formation), phase shouldn't be an issue. If they're spaced at all, you might get unlucky and have some problems. Flip the phase on one and see if it sounds better.

Oh, and Mostess: there's a demo version of the mic modeler. I chuckled at their prices, too.

[Sober]

Forgive me......

Phase?

[deshead]

Forgive me......

Phase?

Here are a couple of pages explaining the effect:
http://www.songstuff.co.uk/Features/Tec ... /phase.htm
http://www.pa-direhct.co.uk/downloads/P ... lation.htm

[toddlans]

phase problems happen when the one sound wave that is similar to another (ie two mics on instrument) is lagging behind the 2nd one. if two exact waves are at 180 degree phase (basically when one wave is exactly halfway ahead or behind the other) there will be a cancellation of the sound because the peak (when the wave is at its highest) of one wave is occuring at the trough (the lowest) of the other. its easier to explain with a drawing of two waves intersecting. anyway, with XY the capsules are right on top of each other so the sound gets to the mic at the same time. with a spaced pair you could get more problems but you should be fine if you do it right (well there is no right way to do anything with recording). I like the sound of spaced pair better usually at least for close micing. the general rule that i've learned is to keep the two mics at about 3 times the distance apart that the mics are from the guitar to avoid the most problems. small diaphragm condensors are the best way to go for acoustic in either spaced or xy usually. though a large diaphragm condensor aimed at about the 12" fret (depending on the tone you want) works well too, and even a 57 stuck up there can work for certain things. if you're recording with a lot of other instrumentation like electric guitars too, sometimes something like a 57 is just the thing to let it sit in the mix right.

[HeuristicsInc]

wow, this stuff is pretty complex. i don't usually record acoustic through mic, but a friend of mine asked me to record some of his g&g songs tonight. wanted to refresh my mind on the micing stuff. i have one good mic and i guess he's bringing another, who knows what kind (!) so i guess just try stuff until something sounds good ?
i've not been a recording engineer for anybody else's stuff before!
-bill

[blue]

two microphones on one instrument does not a stereo track make. stereo recordings are of a space or field, not an instrument.

it's doubling, not stereo, that you're talking about up there. doubling makes everything sound better because you're using twice the audio bandwidth per instrument WRT the other instruments in a mix.

whenever you doubletrack (not record a stereo field, but just putting 2 mics on an instrument in arbitrary positions), take a quick shot at phase-matching it and see how it sounds. go to a point in your recording with good dynamics - a hard strum or single hit - and zoom in until you can start to see the waveform. if they are not moving in lock-step, move one of them - usually the mic farthest away from the source - left or right until it exactly matches the other. this will tighten up your bass and remove any flanging. it's something you can really hear if you're recording something like a drum set without using gates, and your bass and snare are bleeding into the tom mics.

for acoustics, especially if you have a nice, quiet room, you can get a great sound with an omni small diaphragm condenser on the 12th fret and a large condenser a couple feet back.

but the best way to get a good sound out of anything is to have someone else play it while you move the mics and listen to the output. that is the only universal method for miking anything.

[blue]

for mixing an acoustic guitar into a rock mix, a lot of people will damp the acoustic's soundhole and use a pickup thru a guitar amp, then mic the amp. this will give you a lot of the character and motion of the acoustic without the bandwidth-sucking breadth of the audio spectrum that an acoustic can produce.

[king_arthur]

Ummm....

Two microphones on a single sound source does make a stereo track, whether that sound source is a single guitar or an entire orchestra.

Doubling a part means playing the part twice, essentially the same way, on two separate channels.

Blue's comments on checking phase-matching when "doubletracking" above are useful advice when doing a stereo recording of an instrument.

Charles (Art is my middle name!)

[blue]

two mics on one source (or any number of sources) CAN make a stereo track, but just having two mics going at once, even if they're recording into a "stereo" track, doesn't make a stereo recording.

if my source is here

X and i have a mic here <- and a mic here <-

what the hell kind of stereo field is that?

stereo miking is the specific use of various techniques to emulate space, not just putting 2 mics on a source.

and i would probably not phase match a well set-up stereo recording, because phasing and amplitude differences are what create the stereo field, especially with a single instrument source.

like in the case of that drum set, you're going to have multiple phase mismatches in a single stereo track. if your snare is audibly flanged, you miiiiight want to phase match that particular instrument, but you'd probably be better off re-recording the take.

[HeuristicsInc]

ok, so my first attempts at recording this thing are in the can, so to speak.
comments are welcome. here are the tracks:
bryan townsend - anything at all
bryan townsend - be
turns out the mic that bryan brought with him was not useful - i had to crank up the gain so much that it incurred a vast amount of noise in the process. so i didn't use that one. what is here is a mix of line-out from the acoustic and my mic, which is also what is used for the vocals.
on "anything" i made a mistake which you may be able to detect.

questions:
how does the guitar sound? suggestions?
how do the vocals sound? i hear maybe two plosives despite my screen on the mic. here's a question - what is the optimal direction for the mic to point for vocals? i have an akg something... er, i'd have to check that later.

i forgot that i do have another mic my grandfather gave me - i'll have to try that one out next time and see how it sounds.
-bill

ps please don't pass the mp3s around since they're not really mine.