Logic

[c hack]

What do you guys think of Logic? Anyone using it as their main DAW? We just got a copy of Logic Express in here at work, and it seems really counter-intuitive. My co-worker and I couldn't even figure out how to do a non-destructive edit to a sound file and bounce the result. Granted, we only spent about 15 minutes on it, but it seems like something like that should be a no-brainer. Curious what you all think about it.

[roymond]

I love it. The soft synths, plugins, track automation...

It's got drawbacks (I'm guessing most systems do). It's not a pure audio environment, so if that's what you need then so be it. The standard in radio production is ProTools, for instance. Two of the areas that definately need to be improved are destructive editing, and midi mapping.

To do non-destructive editing, you highlight the region (or specify it in the transport bar), then copy, then paste. Pretty intuitive, I think. From there you add automated mixing controls for volume, panning, fades, effects, etc.

Logic is over kill for most (myself included, certainly) and as such it requires a good deal of exploration and reference to get beyond the basics.

[the Jazz]

The best things about Logic, in my opinion, are the softsynths and the DSP. But be warned, I've only been using it for about a month, and only a couple times a week, so I probably don't know much more than you do, hack. I like having the channel strip on the right when I select a track. I like how customizable the workspace can be, with linked windows and always-on-top windows, et cetera. But one of the things that bugs me is how it has its own menu bars inside the widows, in addition to the regular File, Edit, View, et cetera on top of the screen. It's hard sometimes to guess where the designers might have hidden a certain command you want.

Other good things... the ease with which you can create time-stretchable Apple Loops, although I'm not sure if that's a feature only in Logic Pro. Little bits of polish, like pressing escape when your mouse is in an editing window to get a quick toolbar popup. In general I prefer a program with less focus on the polish and more on the utility, but if you have the time to spend getting used to Logic, it's powerful enough to do just about anything you would want. However, if you're already using ProTools, Sonar, or other pro quality software, and you know your way around it, I don't see any pressing reason to switch over to Logic unless you need to.

[the Jazz]

News flash - the BU Bookstore is selling Logic Pro 7 to students at the insanely low price of $300! Wow! I still can't really afford it, but I really REALLY want to buy it anyway. This software retails at $999, people. Anyone with a college ID and money to burn (what am I saying, we're all musicians) knows what to do.

[c.layne]

what if you had the ID, and i had the money... maybe we could work something out, eh?

[roymond]

The time and pitch tools are pretty cool in Logic. Adjusting an audio clip to fit a specific space is very simple. This is very handy when encorporating samples or loops or separate tracks into an existing one. I have no experience in other environments, but Logic makes it way easy.

[jack]

The time and pitch tools are pretty cool in Logic. Adjusting an audio clip to fit a specific space is very simple. This is very handy when encorporating samples or loops or separate tracks into an existing one. I have no experience in other environments, but Logic makes it way easy.

yeah, this is a huge feature. unfortunately, ProTools does not have those capabilities. i'm pretty sure Live does though.

[c hack]

The time and pitch tools are pretty cool in Logic. Adjusting an audio clip to fit a specific space is very simple. This is very handy when encorporating samples or loops or separate tracks into an existing one. I have no experience in other environments, but Logic makes it way easy.

yeah, this is a huge feature. unfortunately, ProTools does not have those capabilities. i'm pretty sure Live does though.

I believe TDM has that feature. In Pro Tools LE, you have to do it by hand (measure how many samples you want it to be, then do a time compression/expansion with a plugin. No big deal, but not great either.

Live kicks ass with that. Not only is it as easy as possible, it has like 4 different algorithms for stretching it, depending on if it's vocals, beats, or whatever. VERY nice.

[HeuristicsInc]

Acid does a good job with that too (I hope it would, it's made for using loops).
Audiomulch doesn't, though - its loop contraption just slows down/speeds up the loop to fit different lengths. Good when that's what you want
-bill

[jack]

The time and pitch tools are pretty cool in Logic. Adjusting an audio clip to fit a specific space is very simple. This is very handy when encorporating samples or loops or separate tracks into an existing one. I have no experience in other environments, but Logic makes it way easy.

yeah, this is a huge feature. unfortunately, ProTools does not have those capabilities. i'm pretty sure Live does though.

I believe TDM has that feature. In Pro Tools LE, you have to do it by hand (measure how many samples you want it to be, then do a time compression/expansion with a plugin. No big deal, but not great either.

Live kicks ass with that. Not only is it as easy as possible, it has like 4 different algorithms for stretching it, depending on if it's vocals, beats, or whatever. VERY nice.

hm. to my knowledge, the only way to stretch or fit loops into a particular bpm is to establish your sample rate at the beginning of your session. in setting this parameter, i don't think you can work with multiple bpm tracks within the same session. all loops will play at the default sample rate. pitch shifting is fairly easy and straightforward, but time compression/expansion is a pain in the arse with protools LE.

unless you can enlighten me c hack....

[c hack]

Not sure what you mean about sample rate. That just affects sound quality, AFAIK. What I do is I set the bpm of the song. Then I drag whatever clip I want to loop onto a track, solo it, figure out its bpm by doing "identify beat," and snip it so it loops by itself seamlessly. Then I turn grid mode back on, select the area that I want to squeeze the new loop into, see how many samples long it is, click on the new loop, open up the time compression/expansion plugin (or Serato's "Pitch 'n Time"), and tell it to be the same length as the area I just measured. It's a little bit of a pain, but it's not too bad.

If it sounds bad (or I think it could sound better), I might open it in Live, stretch or squeeze it, export it, and import it back into Pro Tools. Sometimes, it'll sound better that way.

Does that make any sense?

[tonetripper]

Not sure what you mean about sample rate. That just affects sound quality, AFAIK.

Actually, depending on the difference in sample rate it will affect the audio when playing it at a different sample rate than the one that the wave actually is at. Meaning if the wave is at 96 and you play it at 44.1 in the set-up of the project that you are working on it'll either play it faster or slower depending on which way this difference is configured (I can't remember which way it is different, but I think a 96 wave played at 44.1 makes the audio slow and drawn out). Audio quality is dependant on sample rate. You are correct about that, but your wave standing as it should be heard will be dependant on making sure that the project set-up is running at the same sample rate.

As far as Logic goes, I have a buddy who uses it and he has had tremendous results. These days it really is what you get use to using. I have heard him rave about the soft synths and I have heard them myself in compositions of his and there are killer synth sounds. I have yet to hear too much in the way of mic stuff being recorded into it. But to my knowledge audio engines in most computer programs these days are the same generally. It's all in what you do with it. That and your sound card etc.....

As far as Live goes. It rules. I need to buy it. I so miss my copy of it. It is awesome for remixing. To think of it, I don't know another post mix program that rivals it.

[c hack]

Not sure what you mean about sample rate. That just affects sound quality, AFAIK.

Actually, depending on the difference in sample rate it will affect the audio when playing it at a different sample rate than the one that the wave actually is at. Meaning if the wave is at 96 and you play it at 44.1 in the set-up of the project that you are working on it'll either play it faster or slower depending on which way this difference is configured (I can't remember which way it is different, but I think a 96 wave played at 44.1 makes the audio slow and drawn out). Audio quality is dependant on sample rate. You are correct about that, but your wave standing as it should be heard will be dependant on making sure that the project set-up is running at the same sample rate.

Oh, I see what you mean. In Pro Tools, you set a sample rate for the whole session, and if the audio file you're importing has a different sample rate, Pro Tools will resample it at the session's rate (or not let you import it -- one of the two, I forget which).

[tonetripper]

To be honest with you I don't work much with ProTools, but what you have said is correct. It's important to configure the session to accomodate the sample rate of the imported wave, otherwise the imported wave may sound vastly different than how you might like to hear it.

[jack]

Not sure what you mean about sample rate. That just affects sound quality, AFAIK.

Actually, depending on the difference in sample rate it will affect the audio when playing it at a different sample rate than the one that the wave actually is at. Meaning if the wave is at 96 and you play it at 44.1 in the set-up of the project that you are working on it'll either play it faster or slower depending on which way this difference is configured (I can't remember which way it is different, but I think a 96 wave played at 44.1 makes the audio slow and drawn out). Audio quality is dependant on sample rate. You are correct about that, but your wave standing as it should be heard will be dependant on making sure that the project set-up is running at the same sample rate.

Oh, I see what you mean. In Pro Tools, you set a sample rate for the whole session, and if the audio file you're importing has a different sample rate, Pro Tools will resample it at the session's rate (or not let you import it -- one of the two, I forget which).

actually, this is exactly what i'm talking about. it resamples it to the session rate. i have imported tracks of various bpm into a single session (my "run faster" tune uses 2 different bpm in the song, one in the verse, another in the bridge) but the tracks were created (and the bpm set) outside of protools (in reason but not via rewire but by bouncing loops out of reason and re-importing them). i guess what i was trying to say is that as far as i know, you can't modify the bpm of a track you created within a session. that's where it uses the default.

then again, i'm no expert and don't really know dick.

[roymond]

The time and pitch tools are pretty cool in Logic. Adjusting an audio clip to fit a specific space is very simple. This is very handy when encorporating samples or loops or separate tracks into an existing one. I have no experience in other environments, but Logic makes it way easy.

yeah, this is a huge feature. unfortunately, ProTools does not have those capabilities. i'm pretty sure Live does though.

Logic has a feature to match the bpm to a sample, I suppose by analysing the waveform for the peaks and averaging from there or something. I haven't played with it though.

Supposedly Pro7 has pretty amazing mastering and pitch correction tools added.

[tonetripper]

then again, i'm no expert and don't really know dick.

One might say that you don't know Shite.

[fluffy]

Also both Pro and Express have great loop handling, which they borrowed from Garageband/Soundtrack.

[Freddielove]

Longshot.

Anyone here use Garage Band and Logic 7, Pro or Express?

I am thinking about making the jump to Logic from Garage Band but first I would like two know two things.

1. Is Logic express a big enough leap fom Garage Band? i. e. $300 worth. And is Pro worth the extra $700.

2. I have a g4 quicksliver, 733 896 ram. can it handle Logic for more than say 4 tracks?

I plan on trying out the demo, it would be great to know though if anyone here has any experience with both aps to expain the differences, thanks.

[fluffy]

I used Garageband for my 'run faster' and have been playing with the trial version of Logic 7. I LOVE Logic 7. But get the trial version first if you want to try it out yourself. I've been using it for about 15 days for both recreational and professional purposes (I'm actually using it to compose music for cellphone games right now) and it is simply amazing compared to GarageBand. The learning curve is a bit steep but it comes with the full manual which is actually pretty enjoyable to read.

Also, the academic version is 1/2 off, and store.apple.com's educational section never actually verifies that you're a student.

Your system's specs should be fine, at least for raw audio tracks. Expect to have to freeze a lot if you do a lot of effects or soft instruments though. (Fortunately, freezing is a very simple operation in logic. remember it was originally designed to run on an Atari ST or something.)

[the Jazz]

The difference between Garageband and Logic is IMMENSE. Any form of Logic is orders of magnitude more powerful than Garageband. I haven't used Express, but from what I have heard it's more than enough for the casual producer. More stuff I have found out about Logic Pro: it has a buttload of DSP presets, for those who are less inclined to tinker and just want to find a setting that cleans up their tracks easily. Two buttloads, even. So many buttloads of presets that it boggles the mind.

[fluffy]

Yes, definitely, I didn't mean to imply that Logic was just the next step up from GarageBand, but that after outgrowing GarageBand (pretty quickly) I decided to give Logic another shot, especially since Express has the demo version available.

They are definitely totally different beasts, yes.